Originally Posted by
SmallBowl
I disagree, classic mods imo are about the right length, considering in a competitive system matches / duels are typically first to 3, having around 5 minute games, which is typical in classic mods gives a range of time from 15 minutes to 25 minutes, this is long enough and is about the amount of time that it should be, on the other hand the mods seen above can take 20 minutes per match, as they did when I was fighting Icky and Scorpio. This gives a total time of 1 hour - 1 hour 40 which is too long for the competitive scene.
But you're missing an important point : we're not going for "first to 3" or "first to 5" win condition, we're aiming to change the win condition for competitive striking mods to focus it on reaching a predefined amount of points rather than conserving a point advantage. And even if it's not possible with the tools we have right now, we're starting to shape the meta & rules around that idea.
Also, those mods can't take up to 20mins : (20 seconds*40 turns)/60= 13mins at max. But without the "first to X rounds" win condition, if you play it well it could actually take you less than 13 mins to reach the amount of points needed.
And even with a first to 3 system it would take approximatively 30mins.
But yes, the purpose of the 40 turns is to suit our own competition format and win conditions, 20 turns is more reasonnable when it comes to classic format "first to X rounds".
Playing a game should never feel boring or like work, whats the point in that?
Yes of course, but how are those mods boring ? Those mods deliver the most intense matchs I've played in a long time. The matchs are longer than usual ones but you don't have time to get bored, you constantly need to react and adapt to your opponent, it's a fight.
shown below is a replay of me fighting Icky, there is another that I can upload but the end of the replay is glitched, throughout the replay, it is more clear if watched slowly, Icky is far more fluid and he strikes aiming for areas of my body, while I flail my limbs nearly disqualifying myself 3 times, despite this I win with a narrow point victory, while many of my hits miss completely.
2 times of note are around frame 800 where there is just an RNG pileup and I somehow come out on top from a point deficit and around frame 450, where if watched slowly I clearly was kicked in the head with a decent force yielding 0 points, which was odd. Icky was the better player, and lost.
I don't think we're watching the same replay ;p
Most of Icky's "hits" in this replays are pushes, he triggers his hits way too late which results in poor strenght at impact moment (you see the thresholds bar above the scores indicating the power of the hit). It's what happen on that kick around frame 400 you talked about.
He comes in in sloppy ways, with parts of his body super exposed, there's a part of the fight where his head ends up inbetween your thighs for quite some time, and his defense is pretty bad, he puts all he has on the attack. This is an exact exemple of what I was saying in my previous post : the way he hits (starting at very close distance resulting in push rather than hit) is a symptom of the classic mods, same for the "clinch" part, he tries to "scissor/pinch" you, but those are not HITS, and therefore score shit or no points. He plays the "classic style", as you can see it works as he does score some points and move around, but it's not as OP as it was before, the skillcap has been raised and players must adapt.
On the other hand, YOU actually played the HITS. You get 2 pretty nice head hits and one almost-crotch in. You sure made mistakes (like giving him 10 points by launching your head on his fist xD), but you're overhaul less sloppy than Icky on that replay, even if you end up with your face in dangerous position 2 or 3 times, his hits are too weak to be any dangerous at this distance. Icky was NOT the better player, you guys both made big mistakes, but you clearly got the best hits.
As for the clinch situation without random-ish outcomes, it's not particular to my set of mods, it's actually less random and punishing on my mods. With the classic point system you would end up with hundred of thousands of points, with one player having +50K points than the other for no particular reason, which is pretty much impossible to catch up.
Thresholds and point distribution lower the "rubbing damages" causing randomness during clinch situation, even if it doesn't suppress it completely there's no huge insurmontable point difference after a clinch.
The only way to totally get rid of those random points during a clinch is, once again, "Damage threshold" + "Point trigger", which can't be used together yet.
In the consistency point, I found the opposite, as I said earlier my win rate was exactly 50/50 over 6 games, taking a total of just over 2 hours. Despite the fact that I am worse at striking than scorpio and Icky, 50% is exactly the least consistent it is possible to be.
That's what I explain above and in my previous post. Icky and Scorpio probably are good in classic mods, Icky shows a pretty classic demonstration in that replay. But they're average in my striking mods, they didn't go past what they already knew from their "classic knowledge", which is why you guys had 50/50 win rate, the classic playstyle is nerfed, and you're totally decent at striking from what I saw in that replay. Have some self-confidence !
when competitive Dota or league is watched noobs dont understand whats going on exactly, with the steep learning curves and all the characters and items in the game. Does that make it uncompetitive or less good to watch? Not according to viewing figures and prize money when compared with other games.
My point isn't that all competitive games must be nice to watch, my point is that Toribash has this particularity and should strongly use it. You create movement, you play to win and it results in a unique animation, and matchs NEVER look alike. It's a unique game creating very graphical and unique replays, I don't understand why you wouldn't promote that aspect of the game when it's obviously its core idea.
EDIT :
it was new for the first 500 frames of the first match but afterwards it became tedious and a chore to play.
You can't sound the depth of a competitive mod with just 500 frames tho. If it became tedious after a short while it's probably because you guys tried to play the same old classic way, and it probably felt disappointing to see the poor results it gives.
Last edited by deprav; Aug 24, 2015 at 08:28 PM.