You're going to have to specify exactly on what field we are discussing. It looks like SuicideDo is arguing on a metaphysical playing field. I'm guessing that we should probably be discussing on naturalistic grounds? Theistic and metaphysical properties are hardly arguable to begin with, and there's too much difference in belief to know that we're even talking about the same thing when we introduce metaphysics.

And it's fine for me to bring up examples that I brought up in the other thread, yes? ~Ele: yes