Non hispanic naturalized whites, non hispanic naturalized blacks, non hispanic naturalized asians... you know, subsets of a population? The literal definition of demographic?

It's a difference of like 8-12 percentage points between those populations and the illegal hispanic immigrant population.


They're cheaper in every industry, not just farming. Rising rates of illegals working service and office type jobs (as indicated by an article previously linked by you) also shows that illegals aren't necessarily more unskilled than your average unskilled American worker (surprise surprise, didn't see that one coming) (yes, 180,000 in 5 years isn't a huge terrible

Yes, I know farming is seasonal work. I have a history of doing farm work. Frankly, though, I don't understand your point? You put fruit in freezers so if you don't have the labor to maintain a large farm operation when farming actually has to be done then somehow nothing changes because thank god magical freezers replicate fruit nowadays?

*Sigh*

Open job positions =/= people magically coming to fill them. Certainly not people who live in the city and are looking for a comfortable white color job. Removing 5% of the labor force (regardless of wage or demographic) simply removes productivity. If people currently not in the labor force wanted to work, then they'd be literally be accounted for in the labor force through unemployment rates. So, just because there's this awesome farm job half an hour outside the city doesn't mean the near 40% of the country that isn't interested in a job will jump on the opportunity just because its there. I'm sure there are some people who will notice clear job opportunities and decide to reenter the work force, but I sincerely doubt it will make up for the 5% mass exodus nationally (including the ~9% mass exodus in some of the country's most productive states, i.e. California).

And so, there's a lack of labor leading to lost productivity and economic downsizing, especially in previously mentioned industries where illegals are grossly overrepresented.

In industries where illegals make up some 20-25% of the labor force, they'll have to restructure to make up for the lost productivity and raise prices because of supply shock (this is potentially long term and structural all across multiple industries, not a flood taking out bananas). It's doubtful the economy will crash, but things like food prices will rise substantially. You could try to stop eating the corn and eat meat instead, but the meat factories are effected too. So people deal with a raise in grocery bills.

Not sure about you, but my family likely would not be able to handle even a 15% raise in the price of grocery products. We'd have to stop paying the electrical bills.

So, Americans are unnecessarily effected and have to live paycheck to paycheck where they otherwise wouldn't just because some asshole thought it would be a great idea to deport the illegals and find solutions to the obvious economic outfalls later.

We can keep going into construction (another necessity of every other industry in the nation) but I'm not sure that's needed.

Wage doesn't even have to be a factor in that scenario.



Just as an aside, let's not forget how much it would cost to track down 11 million people and put them on a truck/bus/raft/plane/zipline/magical carpet back to whatever central american country they came from.

This coming from the guy that says he also wants to lower taxes AND pay off the debt in something like 10 years. Trump really fails as basic math, doesn't he.


A 3% rise isn't outstanding, but it does indicate that the idea that illegal immigrants are lowly useless laborers is probably false. They can be just as skilled as American workers in aptitude and capability.

The funny thing is, if we gave them a clear path to citizenship and made their kids citizens, we could normalize their graduation rates in a generation.


1.) I'll concede this one just for the sake of not throwing shit around, but you can probably sense I don't feel its appropriate to be as heavy handed on this issue as you are.
2.) This is less indicative of their capability than their situation. We could fix this over the course of a generation or so by providing opportunities to them and their children.
3.) In terms of economic stimulus, yeah, you're right. But they're also the backbone of our agriculture, construction, and low skilled service jobs. So, without them the entire country would be indisputably worse off in terms of productivity in those industries (the population isn't infinite)
4.) I agree, this is a problem. They should definitely be allowed protection of our labor laws.
5.) Yup.

Yeah, overall they obviously aren't the gold standard American or anything, but many work hard in their own right and the benefits of their labor force and productivity in some of our absolute core industries (that effect every single resident in the country) is clear. The benefits of their economic contribution (in terms of the production of real assets, don't sidestep this with economic stimulus) outweighs their social and job market negatives for legal residents.


Again, an infinite population of willing workers isn't going to come out of the woodwork just because we deported 5% of our labor force. Some people will probably come out and work again, but there's no good reason to believe they'll fill that entire gap (again, especially in previously mentioned industries like agriculture, construction, and low skilled service jobs).


: (

I didn't realize you went through something so tragic


Yeah but really, that's obviously not the scale of what would happen here. This isn't some environmental disaster directly destroying assets, but is striking ~7 million people from the work force.


It'd be boring if you agreed straight up, but courtesy is a thing too :<

In any case, yeah it's subjective. It's silly to me that by the time a naturalized immigrant becomes a citizen (which can take three years in some of the best case scenarios), they know more about US history than your average US citizen. It just seems like a slap in the face to people who worked their ass off to become a citizen of this country when the assholes who are born here know jack shit about their own godgiven nation.

We can just agree to disagree there


And even higher



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Alright.

Since nobody has covered it yet, figured I'd mention that both candidates have picked their VPs and both conventions are over.

Trump and Clinton both came out of their conventions with bumps in their poll numbers (Clinton leading), but the race has really only just begun. We can expect the debates and w/e else to have an effect on the outcome of November.