Originally Posted by
Laser
Toribash is definitely not as complex as Dota, but it has so many possible combinations for moves that machine learning is pretty much the only solution. Since replays are not recorded (and it would literally take years to gather enough replays even with a script), self-learning seems to be the best option. This would be much easier if there was a built-in AI (not machine learning) to play against at the start, but not having one would just mean playing more games against itself.
I'm pretty positive that such an AI is in reach without having an insane amount of resources as long as Toribash has enough information in their an API (as ynvaser said). I think a lot of you guys are not considering how quickly a Toribash AI could train itself. Sure, there are a TON of possibilities in this game but even for players a typical ABD game takes like 5 minutes, and an AI wouldn't need the reaction time—it would come up with a move in less than a second. The only information you need is the state of all 21 joints for each player for each frame. That's not intensive at all and can easily be handled by a decent computer.
There are actually several factors that would make this AI harder to develop than the DOTA one. Just think about this simple concept: in Dota, let's say, an enemy attacks the AI with a skillshot. Using its processing power the AI can make a split second calculation on how to dodge that skillshot, and also if it can fire anything back meanwhile. Now if you look at similar scenario in toribash, the combat works in much more limited way, because both players play out their set of moves at the same time, which doesn't give space for any perfectly calculated moves or counters. In basic terms, Dota can be almost 100% calculated, while Toribash is a game of guessing and predicting. Even if AI knew the joint states of the opponent, it wouldn't help unless it was real time states, something like realtimeghost.
Now when you factor that in, and how Dota AIs were being trained on 100,000 CPUs at the same time, you can realise how big of a scale this project would have to be.
Originally Posted by
Laser
Moving at the same time vs. taking turns actually doesn't make a difference at all since they're both turn-based, either way you're just trying to predict what your opponent will do next.
That is extremely wrong. Moving at the same time is massively more complicated than taking turns. You can't even compare chess to Toribash because of how primitive chess is in comparison. Imagine if in a first turn of Toribash your opponent was T-posing and not moving at all. You would most certainly decap or otherwise gain a huge advantage over your opponent, this is how much different it is.
In the game of chess you have the whole board in front of you to make your decision for next move. Nothing changes on the board between you observing the positions, making a decision and moving the piece until the opponent's turn. This way you can make an
informed move. In toribash you can never make an informed move, it just wouldn't be possible until you were 100% certain that your opponent is afk or not moving otherwise. Honestly I don't think I need to go on because anyone could figure out by themselves why it's such a huge difference.