Again, I didn't complain about Reno. It's really easy to dismantle arguments I didn't make.

Creating more RNG discover elements and mechanics doesn't reduce card draw RNG. It introduces far more RNG, yes. But it doesn't reduce card RNG. If you honestly think "Well I can adapt my 5/4 to have poisonous, so it's like I drew my Giant Wasp!!!" as a valid excuse for how much more draw RNG has been introduced into the game, then we disagree.

Adapting mechanics are great because you can attempt to make plays with the options. I get that.

Draw RNG is still more of a factor in Hearthstone now than it was in the past. Adapting minions doesn't fix that. Drawing Patches single handedly can drop a deck's win rate by a very real percentage. That's draw RNG imposed by the damn mulligan phase. It's not like putting Alexstraza in your deck and finding her in your mulligan. It's a 1 mana card you put in your aggro deck that by drawing by turn 1 makes your win rate go down.

Also - decks slowing down doesn't mean the game is more interactive. A zoolock vs. midrange shaman deck may end 5 turns quicker than midrange shaman vs. control warrior, but it doesn't mean the control warrior game was more interactive. It doesn't mean more decisions were made. Yeah at least you get to play more cards in longer games, but playing cards doesn't have to mean more decisions. You play a taunt warrior deck, oh man so slow. Thank you thanks Hearthstone now we have Tar Creeper to deal with aggro. How is playing a taunt minion on 3 a choice? What was your alternative that turn? Shield block? Hero power pass? Coin bloodhoof brave? Much decisions.

I do prefer no RNG, that is in fact WHY I PLAY CHESS haha. I'm not insinuating Hearthstone has to be chess. It's a fucking card game. Discovery cards, generating random cards, deal random damage, transform into a random higher costed minion -> these elements are luck based that can turn the tides of games unfairly but they are also what makes hearthstone great. Each game can tell a different story because of these cards. It's one of the many ways you stop curvestone from happening.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't want more from blizzard. It doesn't mean you should just accept all elements of luck and RNG in the game as something to play around, and playing around things = skill. You should want better. I want it to better. I think there are things they could do to substantially reduce how large we emphasize draw RNG. I'd like to see those things happen.

That is literally complaining about reno, but let's not dwell on that one.

Well you say they should make hearthstone better, how?
Some actual improvements and not just "Less RNG"

Well for one, introduce scrying. In Magic the Gathering, there are cards that let you look into the top however many cards of your deck, and rearrange them in the order of your choosing. The closest we have is Tracking, which is one class, and forces you to discard two of your three cards, which blows.

For second, lower the powerful effects of legendaries that breed archetypes and turn them into epics. Having less powerful effect placed on one card and doubling the amount of that card in the deck means it's less punishing to not draw the card and you're twice as likely to draw the card.

For third, stop designing cards that are amazing to play on curve and really shit off curve. Less cards like Patches, Small Time Buccaneer, Totem Golem when it was a relevant problem. These cards have created the highest failure rate built into most decks in Hearthstone history. It used to be only Rogue had this type of built in failure rate based off "Will I draw Gadget in time", now even if you run a dragon deck, with like 8 dragons in your deck, you have a real chance to not draw a dragon at all when you need them and you just flat out lose.

So there's 3 things: Add scrying, make some legendaries epics and make them less powerful doubling your consistency and lowering your power swings, and make less power swings cards that are garbage when not played perfectly on curve or with the perfect conditions and setup in your hard so there's just overall less power swings emphasized by the card drawing mechanic.

asd

Started playing a bit again after not playing for 2 years. (Yea, so that's a couple of months after GvG was released). Anyone been in this position and what's the best way to catch back up?

The game gave me a few packs and some dust to get started again and with the dust I already had I crafted a couple cards I was missing for the pirate warrior deck that's in the meta right now (missing leeroy and patches though but still works).
Is it just a matter of getting back to the grind now? I love this game but I hate how quickly you get left behind in irrelevance if you stop for a bit.

Those problems are slowly being fixed. I agree with you. I think Mean Streets dun goof'd and this package of cards has much less cards focused on draw RNG. A good example of how they fixed it was making such cheap elemental generating elemental cards, so you could always have elements at the ready to activate your next turn. And by playing them, you're choreographing your next turn, so your opponent can play around it. That stuff makes me happy.

I'm a great deal more okay with a 10 mana card having a holy shit effect and there only being one like N'zoth than a card like Clutchmother Zavas, a 2 mana legendary that came out in Un'Goro. It didn't need to be a legendary. It could've been a 2 mana 2/2 with +1/+1 instead of +2/+2 and it would've been discard lock more consistent, discard RNG would be smaller, and draw RNG would be smaller.

And I still hate the Paladin quest legendary.


@Solax: there are good addons to help you draft a good arena deck. Being proficient in arena will net you lots of dust, gold, and packs.

Traditional Handlock vs. Ramp Druid that ran FoN+SR Combo. Let's talk about that matchup.

Traditional Handlock's goal was to utilize Warlock's life tap ability to:
a) Increase your draws, which increases the consistency of drawing an answer
b) Trade your health resource for options, value, and board control
c) Utilize cards that benefit from large hand sizes
d) Utilize tech cards that benefit from countering a threat, rather than posing it's own.

Turn 1 - Zombie Chow? Mortal Coil? Coin Hero Power? Pass? All legitimate pro choices.

Turn 2 - Ancient Watcher? Mortal Coil? Dark Bomb? Hero Power? Sunfury Protector? Ironbeak Owl? Hero power pass?

Turn 3 - Coin hellfire? Mind Control Tech? Big Game Hunter? Earthenring Farseer? Sunfury protector the ancient watcher? Ironbeak owl the ancient watcher? Coin twilight drake?

Turn 4 - Twilight drake? Mountain Giant? Defender of Argus? Ancient Watcher + Sunfury? Shadowflame the Ancient Watcher?

And listen I can go on and on. There were merits to summoning a 4/10 vs. an 8/8. There were merits to summoning a 3 mana BGH on curve. There were merits to not playing Ancient Watcher on 2 even though you had it.

AND GET THIS: The opponent had decisions too!

Just in general against any handlock:

1) Do I play more cards that have 3 or less health?
2) Do I play a fourth card knowing he might have MCT?
3) Do I play around BGH, or is this a card to allow him to BGH?
4) Should I attack him or keep him out of range of playing Molten Giants until next turn?
5) How will my board interact with his upcoming sylvannas?
6) Do I kill the ancient watchers prior to a sunfury protector coming down?
7) Does he look like he runs the Combo? Do I play around that?

Right back to this match. He's playing Ramp Druid that runs FoN+SR combo

What choices does the ramp druid make in a typical game, irrespective of handlock?

1) I have innervate against an aggro deck. Should I innervate out a card that's big with taunt? What about innervating out a nourish for more crystals? What about innervating out swipe is that better?

2a) It's turn 3, I just top decked wild growth. Do I play it and float the mana? Do I play shade of naxx? If I do play naxx, when do I unstealth it?

2b) I have wrath, should I wrath for 1 and kill a bloodmage thalnos or loot hoarder early? Do I save it to kill something more impactful with 3 health later? I know those cards aren't ran in handlock.

3) It's turn 5, I have druid of the claw and azure drake. Should I play the claw? I still don't have a board clear, is drawing closer to a board clear better? Can I use Azure Drake better on a different turn with wrath?

4) It's turn 7, and I have ancient of lore. Is it better to kill off a minion with my taunt and heal my taunt? Is it better to heal face? I still have swipe in my deck, is it better to draw 2 and hope I can setup a swipe azure drake turn? What about Ancient of War? Do I play around Black Knight?

5) Is now the time to go with druid of the claw with charge and setup for lethal with the combo? What can my opponent do to prevent lethal? Is it too ambitious to swipe face? Do I need to use a FoN + SR just to clear the board? Is it possible to win if I do?


And then they fought. And it was awesome. The druid having to figure out how to wave in and out of being the offensive guy with charge minions and early face damage, and when he needs to play around board clears and hard removal. The warlock trying to figure out how best to manage his resources of board clears, when were taunts vital? Would he too play around TBK? If he used Siphon Soul on a big shade of naxx, would he have anything in the tank to play around Kel'Thuzad? Should the druid set up for a lethal despite molten giant + taunt up combo? Should he wait? How long can he afford to wait? Can the warlock ever play Jarraxus? Did he actually save coin to hero power for the jarraxus turn?

Those decks are fucking interesting! I like that shit! Those games made hearthstone awesome for me. Same with Handlock vs. Control Warrior. Same with Control Warrior and Miracle Rogue. It felt like making those choices (when to brawl, when to use the last charge of deathbite for the whirlwind effect, when to execute, should I shield slam my own sylvannas? Can I die if I spend my turn using alexstraza on him while I set up from Grom lethal? when to play gadgetzan) were difficult decisions and piloting those decks great altered their win rates. And so very rarely were you sitting there like "Well I didn't draw this card I can only put one of in my deck, so I just flat out lose" Like yeah of course it happened, and yeah of course drawing Fiery Win Axe on 2 was a big deal in matchups against like Zoo or Face Hunter. But there were still so many damn decisions.

I mean seriously - ZOO RAN CRAZED ALCHEMIST AT ONE POINT TO COUNTER DOOMSAYER. Need I fucking say more? That's beautiful.

Fibonacci is the best player to ever play Control Warrior, and he's made it work every season. He still openly admits it's just not as good as other decks. In fact, he piloted quest warrior this month.

Trump's favorite deck is Hand lock, and even after much experimentation to make it work again with the 3 mana 4/8 can't attack card, he still found the deck really unsatisfying and suboptimal.

And Firebat played ramp druid to 12-0 heroic tavern brawl, only it's not actually the type of ramp druid that made much decision. It was jade druid that ran a bunch of big taunt minions to just consume the hits of all the pirate warriors. He flat out said his strategy was queue into aggro, hope it's not rogue, if it's aggro and not rogue you win, if it's not you lose.

I think part of this has to do with lack of good neutral healing. Most of these great decks were great when people had access to Antique Healbot and Sludge Belcher. The Tar family wishes it was as good as Sludge Belcher. I'm not saying it'd be balanced to print a card like Antique Healbot nowadays because of how archetypes like Rogue have now evolved (stuff like Counterfeit Coin and Tomb Pillager). Just saying a 1 mana 2/2 that heals both for 4, while a step in the right direction, comes at all the wrong time.

Just crafted the cards for Quest Warrior and omg i'm in love with it. Went from rank 13 with 3 stars on a 12 wins winstreak to rank 8 with 1 star so far. This deck destroys anything, zoo, quest rogue (yes it fucking rapes it), quest mage/any other mage, control paly/mid range paly, mid range hunter, quest priest and also in mirror matches i won pretty easy. This deck is sweet so far, will comeback 'til the end of the season with the final results.

EDIT: Nearly got rank 6, stoped at rank 7 with 5 stars, but won't give up here.

EDIT 2: Got rank 5 with 2 stars.

EDIT 3: Rank 4 now.

I've been excited by the dynamics of control vs control matchups and how slower decks generate value. Was very nervous Jade made that null and void. But priests using Lyra and Shadowing more Elise Packs vs Ragnaros Hero Power is an interesting dynamic.

I'm becoming more excited by this expansion. I wish I had the time and money to play more decks though. It's brutal that so many great cards needed to run archetypes are epics.

Blizzard's smart though, they are making so much money right now.

A priest BM'd me today because I had 0 cards left in my deck, he had full health, and a ragnaros.

I guarantee he didn't expect brann leper gnome raptor raptor shadow step raptor shadow step raptor eviscerate the raptor.

32 damage OTK... god I love you. The deck is so bad but it's so funny