I let myself descend into the wrong place there. I'll rehash those comments, I am too heated to make points, without ill intent. I apologize.

The conversation is here and now really. Right now I'm still in the camp of 'this brings way more disadvantages and messiness to clans than advantages', for the reasons I'm going to stop re-iterating.

Well I mean, farming can be moderated, it's really easy to do so by checking war logs, and you can implement harsh punishments to people farming.
I mean, just because it's a feeder clan doesn't mean it's the only clan able to farm, I'm sure other clans have done it with each other before?
Just think of Parakeet as it's own separate clan, which just so happens to give people a chance at joining Parrot?
The original idea was that: new players see clans like Parrot or any official clan and think there's no chance in hell that they'd be able to join so they don't even bother applying.
In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with Parakeet, it's its own separate clan. I'm sure there has to be another feeder clan out there that hasn't officially been declared a feeder clan. Can't blame us for being straight to the point and open about it.

Not intending to sound rude or anything. I just feel this whole rule thing is ridiculous considering we got the go-ahead already but get shut down a day after launching it.

Er, why are clan staff acting like this is something that has just arisen? "In light of a recent incident"
Clans have been doing this for years, Evil has done it many times, and even Sir said he can remember Russian clans doing the same thing in 2010.
That's my biggest issue with it, why is this only being addressed after literally 7/8 years?

Also, most of the arguments here about how it is unfair to new unofficial clans etc are pretty much void with the introduction of free clans. You have all these trolls clans running about, countless clans with 1-2 members who never post a description thread, and so on. Most new players only want a fancy clan tag and don't care much for the history of a clan.
With the free clan rule you've harmed the clan system more than ever and yet you think that these sister clans are the ones taking away members and hurting other unofficial clans?

I'm never one to bash on staff but c'mon guys this is just dumb.

@Fee your issues can be much more easily resolved with higher membercaps / no membercaps and 'trial' ranks or etc.

This approach has far too much attached to it.

As an aide, if a clan doesn't want somebody to wear their tag because they don't fit their image, then just don't add them to your clan? TLL gets a lot of people poking me ingame asking to join; I tell them to hang out in our discord or to post around for a while. If we don't like them, then they don't get invited.


@Butler yes, we could let feeder clans exist and then continually check up and monitor them to ensure they're being used exclusively as trail / training periods for the real official membership (or whatever other innocuous reason a feeder clan might have for existing). However the benefits of feeder clans are so far and few between, and only applicable to the parent clan, that I don't see a reason to allow them and then work continually to maintain a system with so few pros and so many cons. Again, feeder clans are not the worst thing in history, but I just don't see why we'd ever allow them. 95% of other official clans get along completely fine without them.


@Wicked just because something has happened in the past, doesn't mean its a good thing. I'm (not speaking for all clan staff) fine with the image of clan staff going into the pits of hell / annoying some people if it means implementing something which should be implemented.


@Surge implying a feeder clan and its parent clan as being two completely separate entities is silly.


See my response to Fee's post; this is a terrible approach to trail membership.


Because a reviving clan does not have two recruitment threads, a board, a manpower of many active members. A reviving clan needs to gather together its old members who may not even be active anymore - it has no leg-ups compared to a regular unofficial clan: it's a group of friends or like-minded people who clan together for some purpose and who run through the process until they want to become official, which they still must apply for.

The idea of a sub-clan is to help the community. Evil recently had an idea to have one but we also considered the possible abuse that could come of them according to staff.

The best way to circumvent this, would be to give official clans the power to designate in-game who's a full member in the clan from a recent clan recruit?

because this is difficult to stress enough, the community is very diverse in people's character. You have people that are genuinely new, people that are respectable, people that don't care and scam, and people that want to improve the community. Un-official clans struggle through this same difficulty as well, which is why they die off so soon and so often. they have to sift through the same quality of people but without the tools to prepare for the damage of recruiting a harmful member.

Now, the idea behind sub-clans is to help newcomers around because many of them don't even know about the forum. Also sub-clans aim to help respectable people gain recognition and find a place they like within the clan system, official clans would probably like the idea of helping un-official clans. but then by helping the un-official clan unknowingly they've already become a sub-clan.

I don't know if toribash next will handle this issue differently but to re-enforce the fact that the learning curve or knowledge given at the start of toribash is so little. Here was a discussion on "new players" that attempts to pinpoint the issue.

http://forum.toribash.com/showthread.php?t=604138

if we can help filter this difficulty in finding members for our own clan as well as other's due to a clan's own recognition already, and help un-official clans grow and improve, while also helping improve newcomers experience as well, then we have a solution.

If everyone could come to an agreement and compromise about what the purpose of a sub-clan IS. then i believe these systems could help new clans thrive, and new members learn more than they know now.

Just the other day a black belt was asking me "how to trade?" i helped them but why shouldn't we help them in whatever else we know by inviting them to a sub-clan and showing them anything they're unsure of? I know that's help squad's role but we're making it more involved and focused about in-game and forum knowledge kind-of like an encyclopedia. "if everyone has the knowledge it's no longer a problem" idea

a sub-clan can be easily found by the newcomer and they can be guided on game aspects that the help squad team normally isn't focused in. we can guide them by showing them where tutorials are, what the forum is, who you can ask for more help, and simpler tasks.

but it is pretty common for staff to receive redundant questions or ban people that don't understand. so why can't we help the community in just this?

if newcomers want to join another clan they are free to do that.
if newcomers want to stay in the sub-clan they are free to do that.
if newcomers want to join the official clan itself that formed the sub-clan they are free to do so.

so what is the problem? if we limit main clan and sub-clan interactions and limit it to teaching and helping can't the whole debate be dismantled?

This is a much better direction for the discussion, thank you.

At the same time:


Multi-clan systems are a hacky, messy, hard-to-keep-track-of and potentially damaging subversion of the toriclan system which attempt to solve issues which may otherwise be legitimate.

Finally, clan staff and some higher ups are currently working on a project specific to clans with beginners in mind. Change should not come from reckless action; use the S&I board if you have ideas like sub-clans so they can be discussed properly. If the specific staff group related to your idea isn't responding, poke them.

Holy what a fuckin awful idea

What happens when your feeder clan becomes too big? Do you make ANOTHER sub-clan to feed into that one? What happens when all the other old official clans with reputations that precede them make feeder clans?

This is a pretty small community. I remember one of the first threads I made was a list of players, tallying at around 1200 (I think?). I'm willing to bet there are about 300 more players than I had counted - but that still leaves you with a crazy percenage of the whole community in your little evil empire. If other clans follow suit, you could easily end up with almost half the community in like five or six clans + sub-clans totally killing the clan community.

As for teacher//teachee relationships, a clan I used to have totally had that relationship with the old [Vibe]. Me and the people in the clan were all new, but we became friends with people in Vibe by interacting in the community. A few of us actually went on to join vibe after we dissolved. Were we at all directionally influenced by Vibe? Absolutely not. There's no need to make a feeder clan to get new people acquainted with the community, just fucking talk to them.

And thats really what irks me about this. You have people complaining on here about getting new members and not being able to accept random members, as if an application thread is the only way to meet new people. Y'all apparently have your own airtight parrot-bubble to the point where you can't deign to interact with the community at large and meet people that way?? Fuckin talk to people, this whole thing is way too pretentious.

Also lmao at the people blaming (((tribe)))

pretty much agree with all this




@Pouffy: you may disagree with it but that doesn't mean you have to be so hostile and negative. Plus, people need to stop with the slippery slope fallacy. It's not doing either side any favors.


I am interested in what kind of system they're brewing up, though.

i agree with pouffy

i initially thought you were just trying to bypass the member cap by making a subclan but i see that's not the case

why the fuck do you guys think having a subclan is the only way to meet new potential members you have your own discord, why don't you use that instead? why don't you tell them to post in your clan board?? like come on this is so stupid and unnecessary

why are you blaming tribe for feeling """threatened""" by parakeet or some shit when their focus is recruiting mostly oldschool members?? why should they care if some random joins your clan?? seriously this whole situation is retarded