The next stage of evolution and human rights

Original Post

deprav

Jun 13, 2013

deprav

Join Date: Dec 2010

Jun 13, 2013

The next stage of evolution and human rights

The internet is a very powerful tool and needs to be defended and used consciously. It made us "hyper-comunicating" : we're on the edge to be able to share free culture, ideas and knowledge, instantly and on a world wide scale, regardless of the old nationalist boundaries, religions and colors. Like synapses linking areas of the brain together.
Communication is important, we've taken it to a point A LOT of our old ideas and conception of politic, economics and nationalist ideas are now obsolete.

After the Edward Snowden affair, revealing the existence of PRISM, a "tool" the US government currently uses, a tool able to spy on any mean of communication without any restrictions nor democratic control (google it if you haven'd heard of it, it's very important to know) ; we know we'll have to act and defend our rights in order to evolve as a free and conscious specy.

Without the internet we probably would never hear about the following videos I'm about to share, its content being entirely accurate or not isn't the point. It's an important event and a first on the politic scene, even more as it might be true.

Watch it until the end because he finishes on a very wise note.

We need to prepare ourselves to break with the old customs, because we can, because we have to ! if we ever want our future generation to live a descent life.
We presently know that the actual economic system is the hugest scam ever made, the crysis are man made, our lives suffer the consequences of decisions taken by men holding the ressources and power into their hands... because that's what a world irrationaly based on money does : the richer people decide, and we comply, the richer people shape, and we adapt.

I know this is some hard informations to proceed, because daily life and its issues keep us from seeing the history happening, but history happens "everyday over a few year". I can assure you our actual technology and knowledge is bringing us to a crucial point of our evolution, just be aware. Select your informations, think about them, doubt about the mass media, learn and be respectful.

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Edit : just to make things clear, I'm not supporting ALL of what the honourable old man says, but I'm in a very Sci-Fi mood lately. And I thought it was a cool vidz with cool points to start a discussion about the present state of humanity if we replace ourselves humbly in the universe ;o

Last edited by deprav; Jun 14, 2013 at 06:51 AM.

STRIKING Reborn

William

Jun 13, 2013

William

Join Date: Oct 2008

Jun 13, 2013

Originally Posted by ImmortalCow

-> PRISM
USA does this like this all the time, of course it's bad but not much we can do about it.

-> ALIENZ
Proof plz.
yeah and the fact they only land on US lands is pretty suspicious :P

-> Economics
Unavoidable. Even if you move to pure socialism there will still be people more powerful than others.
Anarchism. But it's too late for that.

-> Spiritual beings
Many religions use the silver rule or inverse golden rule. But I think that's more about being a nice person than anything religious. As usual I don't see why "be a nice person" is a spiritual experience. Isn't it obvious that you should be nice to other people?
No clue. Maybe morality needs a more fancy name or something?

Your messed up world enthrills me

deprav

Jun 14, 2013

deprav

Join Date: Dec 2010

Jun 14, 2013

USA does this like this all the time, of course it's bad but not much we can do about it.

Lel, you were arguing the exact opposite on the CISPA thread, something along the line of "governments don't lie" and their laws and bills about the internet are only to protect the citizens against cyber-threats... you wanted a proof ;o
Not much we can do about it if we ain't doing anything that's for sure.

-> ALIENZ
Proof plz.

I have none, I'm pretty sceptical about half he said (aliens being presently held prisonner and working with US gov 'n shit), the important point is how plausible it sounds for a human brain (not likely, but plausible), because if the human race had any contact with ET life with a superior technology, it would more likely be held secret for economical reasons (& religious reasons)
Plus if you want proof, we are a living proof ;p We went to space and, in the absolute, we aren't particullary smart : 80% of the people watch dumbshit on TV to rest their brain from an exhausting shitty job. If only a few of us can make us go to space, I guess some more evolved specie somewhere in the overwhelmingly huge universe might have stopped over our planet. I've never seen any, but that surely doesn't sound impossible.
+ I don't think that's something we can provide proofs for : witnesses are called nutjob, pics and vidz makes people sceptical because we can photoshop anything, or give some other rational explanations. If someone ever meet an actual alien, shakes his hand in front of a camera, people would call it special FX and stay in denial xD
So yeah, the only proof we could ever provide is ourselves, coupled with logic and probability applied on the scale of the universe.

-> Economics
Unavoidable. Even if you move to pure socialism there will still be people more powerful than others

We already had this (pretty long) discussion once. Any economic system will have influence on our social behaviour, our relation with "possession" and our political ideas in general.
The actual one is just enlarging the gap (between rich & poor) and becomes unbearable for the largest part of the population, ecologically dangerous, and starts to look like a totalitarian drift. Because people holding the money see the average joe is now able to educate himself, they're scared.
As we said in our long discussion about economics, it's no longer a science aiming to study human's exchange of good(needs) and currency, it's a tool which aims to exploit the weakness of the actual "closed system" for the profit of a few.

-> Spiritual beings
Many religions use the silver rule or inverse golden rule. But I think that's more about being a nice person than anything religious. As usual I don't see why "be a nice person" is a spiritual experience. Isn't it obvious that you should be nice to other people?

Yep, it SHOULD be a natural and logical rule. But not in a world wide system preaching self-enrichment at the expense of others. Our whole system is based on individualism over general well-being, therefore people growing in this environment will think according to it. I'm pretty sure most of us never considered the golden rule, they probably heard it when they were kidz, and forgot about it...

__________________________________________________ _____________

You make a thread about evolution and human rights and then proceed talk about one specific case of wiretapping. Then you jump to the evils of capitalism and that there will be some kind of revolution which you call evolution which doesn't make much sense as evolution is a biological term.

I think you haven't quite grasped the entirety of the subject.
The wiretapping case is plainly legal rights, the "evil capitalism" is about plain human rights, I don't know where you see something about a revolution... But evolution is not only biological, it's as much about biology as it is about customs, ideas, and perception of our world. We physically evolve, our brains physically evolve depending on our environment, therefore its "content" evolve with it.
When we talk about evolution you probably picture the famous pic of the Walk of evolution, but it's infinitely deeper and more complex than just physical changes. Our society, conceptions and customs evolve with us, and we're actually being held back by some absurd un-natural system.

-----
Also man-made economic crashes lol.
Yay for conspiracy nuts.
The crashes are not planned by a rich elite or something.

Economy is man made, the system is man made, money flux are man made, values on ressources are decided by men, disturbances in the economy (crashes) leading to changes in concerned countries are man planned. Crashes happen regulary, it's the point of the system, central banks create money and lend it to countries with an interest, countries will never be able to pay their loan back > crashes. (I'm oversimplifying but that's it)

You're not getting it, it's not about conspiracy, it's about context and environment in which we evolve. It's not about some secret group aiming to rule the world, that's non-sense, and even if some crazy people were trying, they're nothing against the mass that is the rest of the specy.
It's about greed, lust for power and losing touch with what we are. It's about what the actual system does to us, because anyone accessing the "high sphere" of decision-makers would lose touch with reality, because his daily busy-life concerns are not the same than the rest of the "lesser people". And if you think "decision-makers" are good people working for the general well-being and never keep secrets, you're very naяve.

Last edited by deprav; Jun 14, 2013 at 12:40 PM.

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Deuteria

Jun 14, 2013

Deuteria

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Join Date: Nov 2011

Jun 14, 2013

Evolution doesn't have to indefinitely mean the advancement of biological-based traits, it's perfectly reasonable to use the term 'evolution,' while referring to how the world's people conduct themselves.

Hell, if you're going to use Google to define a word for you, at least give it some thought.

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Deuteria

Jun 14, 2013

Deuteria

ub3r

Join Date: Nov 2011

Jun 14, 2013

Originally Posted by saahsaap

I googled for a while and didn't find any other definition.
-Evolution is a change of traits and inherited characteristics of a population of organisms.
-Only other thing it comes up with is social darwinism and this: Prior to the second half of the nineteenth century, the term was used primarily, if not exclusively, in an embryological sense to designate the development of the individual embryo.

?..

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deprav

Jun 14, 2013

deprav

Join Date: Dec 2010

Jun 14, 2013

Someone in power works for his own income just like your parents do when they go to work.
That's what nature tought us and that's how it will be.

Someone with power works to keep his place, not to let go the power he already have, like a cult of himself.
My father stopped working when me and my sisters were kids because he was working too much, under pressure, and didn't see us enough, so he stopped working to raise us properly. My mother worked (and still does) to provide his family food, pay the house and give us a decent life.
Working for your own income has nothing to do with nature, it's what our actual civilization preaches.

If you want to create an artificial system that bends the rules of nature by providing everyone with the same chances/power/ressources and whatnot you are more than welcome to do that.

An artificial system bending the rules of nature is what we actually have. We're over-consuming in a way our planet won't be able to provide enough, we're mindlessly "looting" the natural ressources in the name of... some people's income of fictionnal currency.
Plus liberal-capitalism provide the richest more wealth and comfort, and on the other hands provides a sad unhealthy life of slavery for the people of "third world countries", or just make them starve to death.

Communism failed very hard at that so I guess before proposing that we need to “evolve” you'll need a good proposition, not some empty phrases.

I've never said communism was the solution, most people seem to think if we're not capitalist, we can either be socialist or communist, or an utopian anarchist... that's a pretty narrow perception of the politic (decisions influencing the specy).
Plus, Communism have never been applied for real, as well as socialism. All we've seen were "communist look alike" systems applied on an already world wide capitalist system. It had the name "Communism", like actual governments are called "democracies" but aren't democratic, like the actual chinese regime calling himself communist... it's just a big joke.

Also, I see you made up your own definition of evolution. It has nothing to do with philosophy so I suggest you try and find an alternative word.
Evolution is a change of traits and inherited characteristics of a population of organisms.

You don't understand what Evolution implies. The "change of traits and inherited characteristics of a population of organisms" is a consequence; organisms change because they adapt themselves to their changing environment, or changing needs. We didn't grow thumbs in one night and then just went like "nice lets grab stuff", we didn't stand up on 2 legs in one night to run marathons : we adapted over thousand of years because the environment we were living in forced it.
Evolution is simply the phenomenon of Life that needs to adapt itself in a "symbiotic" fashion, to keep on living through the course of time. The physical changes on organisms is the "point of the iceberg". The rest is evolution of the customs, techniques, habits, way of living etc... Evolution is as biologic as it is "metaphysical".

"Revolution" implies an event in a precise point in time, evolution is on the long run.

I'll considere the human specie relatively smart when we'll be able to consciously influence our evolution through choices and reason instead of letting ourselves grow like a cancer for our Home and ourselves, like an autistic specie.

Capitalism is pretty much the only system that works nice and proper so…

What... you need to take a step back and look at capitalism through a new p.o.v.
This is just a statement of your own through your eyes of organism adapting itself in the present political environment, and lacking hindsight (not trying to be insulting, it's just how the actual system work, putting "blinkers" on people so they don't see solutions)
Capitalism is basically slavery, the richest take advantage of the poor, like "first world countries" take advantage of poor countries, making their children work in awful conditions for a ridiculous salary just to make the production of useless piece of junks cheaper. The comfort of 20% of the population is at the cost of the health and freedom of the other 80%.
As a specimen of the social specie that is humanity, capable of compassion and empathy, knowing the way I live wastes the lives of millions of people somewhere else on earth makes me sad.

yeah… suggest an alternative and prove that it's efficient.

Sadly I don't hold all the answers, but still I could suggest dozens of alternative solutions better than capitalism... the hard part is to make "transitory" periods/systems because we can't change the world all at once, just in a finger snap (THAT would be a world scale revolution). Actually a lot of people already proposed alternative society models, people just never heard of them, or lobbies keep them from developping because it would "disturb" their absurd profit. Like oil lobbies stops free & clean energy from developping to keep selling petrol.

We're a social specy, we live in society because we'd die alone in the wilderness ; someone expressing an emotion on his face makes your brain produce chemicals to make you feel the same emotion... that's how we work. We're not meant to let people starve and suffer in order to buy a big flat TV to watch brainwashing crap in HD.
We need to create to survive or we'll just wipe ourselves.

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Edit : a little exemple of the relation between evolution of our mind and our environment, that I like to use in those kind of discussions :

A tribe of south-america called the Zo'e; they never had the need to make a currency or put mercantile values on their surrounding. Sharing is natural to them, to the point they don't have any word or expression in their language to say "Thank you", because giving to the rest of the group is just logic, like WE find logic the fact to work shitty jobs to earn paper to buy food and useless crap.

Do you understand the point ? There's no "one truth" or "one way of living", there's only adaptation and extrapolation of our past choices and crucial events through time.

Last edited by deprav; Jun 14, 2013 at 09:23 AM.

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deprav

Jun 14, 2013

deprav

Join Date: Dec 2010

Jun 14, 2013

My poor friend you don't have a clue about what I'm trying to show you, this is gonna be tricky. You basically say Capitalism is good because it's here, so it shouldn't change.

Of course we have benefited some years of capitalism, before that we have benefited some years of monarchy as well etc... In every past systems the men have "benefited" some improvements and discoveries. But this suffer 2 huge "gaps" in logic : nothing proves we wouldn't have improved if we had a different system at that time, we might have done even better ; and secondly nothing proves that the economical system has something to do with our discoveries and technological advances.
Technological and Scientific innovations happen because we're trying to resolve issues and answer questions, not because someone wants to make profit.

(dumb) Exemple : We didn't went to space because someone told himself "I want to make profit, I'll invent something to go to space and sell it to governments", but some people, deeply interested and curious about space searched and discovered ways to explore... Then capitalism enter the game and some people manage to get profit out of it.

The poor are no longer living on the farm worrying about them dying next winter, or understanding that their child will more than likely not live into adulthood, they are in apartments, living quite well than they ever had before.

You need to inform yourself about the world. A huge part of the human population still starve to death, or don't have access to drinkable water. A huge part of the population can't educate themselves because they have no mean to do so. A huge part of the population is in constant civil war because "First world countries" establishe dictatorship and putschs in poor countries to keep control over their ressources, so their children fights with guns and die before adulthood.

You're speaking about a fictionnal carebear capitalism that have STRICTLY NOTHING to do with the actual system, you're talking about schoolbook theory and capitalist propaganda.

You could say that just because the poor do not live in mansions, their lives are not valued. In fact, it's a very emotional argument rather than a logical one- which reminds me of a lot of what Marxian rhetoric is- appeals to emotion rather than reason.

What the fuck are you talking about. You've just sent away centuries of humanitarism thoughts, the golden rule, and the principle of "social specie" all at once, because according to you "it appeals to emotion rather than reason".
At least I'm glad it wakes some emotions inside of your "rational capitalist heart", it means you're not totally hopeless I guess.

Capitalism being slavery is not a tale communists were telling each others late at night around campfires, it's a fact. In Europe the number of people being unemployed gets higher every day because big companies send their factory in India or somewhere else in Asia because they can make the people work longer for almost nothing compared to the minimum wage in EU, means more profit. Heads of companies don't give a shit about people losing their jobs or making some children work 12 hours a day for nothing.

Last edited by deprav; Jun 14, 2013 at 10:40 AM.

STRIKING Reborn

deprav

Jun 14, 2013

deprav

Join Date: Dec 2010

Jun 14, 2013

dude, you're so deep into it you can't get your thoughts out of it, that's insane. You don't get half of what I'm saying. It's getting late I'll try to make it short but I fear I won't be able to D:

I also feel the need to point out that you are unable to provide an alternative to capitalism so this whole debate is rather useless because all you do is point out flaws and provide no comparison with a “better” system.

I'm not unable to provide alternative solutions, I just don't feel writting pages at this stage of the discussion, it's not useful yet if you can't get your eyes off of capitalism. Plus, you could just google around if you wanted, you'll have plenty models to think about (not communism, not socialism, new models taking into account actual technology and knowledge)

People working for less money surely is a great act of enslavement. >_>
That's actually an insult to people who are forced to work for nothing through means of violence.

Erh... how to explain this... It's not just about working for less money. It's about how capitalism stops democracy, about how much time we spend working jobs we do not particulary like during our whole short life, about how we became "slaves" of a system we created as a tool instead of controlling it.

Capitalism doesn't create slavery, a poorly regulated free market system does. If you look at well regulated countries in Europe and America you'll find good working conditions.
If you look at poorly regulated countries like India or Kongo you'll find bad working conditions. You cannot blame capitalism for lack of regulations.

The world wide capitalist system (because politic is now worldwide, we can't just manage country in autarky now, those are old obsolete ideas) is VERY POORLY regulated. speculation on primary ressources and needs, dubious stock exchange, "offshoring" in poor countries to exploit their poor regulation etc... Talk about good working conditions to german peeps, they have no minimum wage, it's one of the most "competitive" country of EU but still it's the country in which "the poor people are the poorest" (in EU), way to go Capitalism ! Tell this to Greek peeps as well, they're fucked to the bones.
And poorly regulated countries like India or Kongo will stay poorly regulated because that's what give them jobs, companies from richer countries offshoring to theirs because the labour is cheaper and they will work for almost nothing to subsist.

Evidence of the social-calculation problem occurring also has empirical evidence. Massive famines and starvation has occurred in North Korea, China , and the Soviet Union . People waited in long lines just to get bread .While China remains more capitalistic, it still has communist elements to it.

Kudos, people starve under dictatorship ! Fackin revelation of the night. And you'll have to point what are the communist elements still left in china because appart from the name I really can't see any. It actually never have been, like ex-URSS and north korea, those were just self-cult "communist" dictatorship applied on a world wide capitalist system. It's non sense.

Gross domestic production is a net benefit to society because it causes a lot of positive results that benefit society.

Thank you.

People that live in wealthier nations tend to be happier . Life expectancy increase as gdp increases, since people have access to healthcare and nutrition . Higher gdp also correlates with a decrease in murders.

Of course they tend to be happier than people starving to death and eating some earth galette to fill their stomach. But please explain why approximatively 25% of the people living in developped countries are using anti-depressant (25% of the whole population, so like 50% of the active working people).

You may think that alternatives need to be implemented. You cannot even provide an alternative, let alone any empirical evidence that said alternatives can work. Speculation is likely to be wrong since it is difficult to predict how human motives will interact with one another in a complex world and there are more ways to be right then to be wrong. In order for his system to work, all assumptions and predictions would have to work out, which is unlikely to be the case. Now we know that the system of capitalism has improved the lives of billions. Therefore, a priori we should accept capitalism as the better alternative to utopic ideas.

I have to say I'm almost speach-less because your conception of "happiness" and life are miles away from mine. Your explainations sound absurd to me, you have your head in a box and you're scared of changes because you actually live a comfortable life and you don't give a damn shit about the rest.

And I'm not the only one thinking alternatives need to be implemented... It becomes pretty obvious for a large part of people since our planet and our organisms won't be able to take it for much longer, we live longer but sick and depressed. hurray.

"Speculation is likely to be wrong since it is difficult to predict how human motives will interact with one another in a complex world"
This was right before any system change, before capitalism too, and here we are. If this was a valid point we would still have emperors.

The system we live in today is the result past suffering and experimentation throughout thousands of years of social engineering.

Systems -in economics, politics, physics, biology or anything you want- are never right from the start. People try, modify, fail, learn and apply. That's how life works.
You sound like we have reached The Peak of our civilization, but you're just stuck in a morbid paralysis.
This system sure is the result of past suffering and experimentation, everything is. That doesn't legitimate the fact that we shouldn't change it. All the future systems will be the result of past suffering and experimention. The next system will be the result of present suffering and experimentations. This is evolution, we adapt.

Tho your graphics made me laugh, thank you.

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Edit : I'll copy-paste this here because it was an edit on another post and you may have missed it

"a little exemple of the relation between evolution of our mind and our (political) environment, that I like to use in those kind of discussions :

A tribe of south-america called the Zo'e; they never had the need to make a currency or put mercantile values on their surrounding. Sharing is natural to them, to the point they don't have any word or expression in their language to say "Thank you", because giving to the rest of the group is just logic, like WE find logic the fact to work shitty jobs to earn paper to buy food and useless crap. And they're pretty, probably more than the average worker of the "developped" world. No income, no GPD, max happiness, where would that go in your graphics ;o

Do you understand the point ? There's no "one truth" or "one way of living", there's only adaptation and extrapolation of our past choices and crucial events through time."

Last edited by deprav; Jun 14, 2013 at 12:47 PM.

STRIKING Reborn

deprav

Jun 14, 2013

deprav

Join Date: Dec 2010

Jun 14, 2013

Eh, this is gonna be 2 parallel discussions, tricky tricky.

If someone actually had proof, it would be very easy to expose and spread it.

People thinking they have proofs are everywhere, people encline to believe them aren't.
And really, some more evolved specie existing in the universe is more than likely. Just apply basic probability on the size of the universe (have an idea, and another one), the chances that we're alone are close to 0. Even more if we considere any possible form of life (ours being carbon based). Earth being visited or not is another matter, this would indeed need solid proofs, but I personnaly wouldn't be surprised.

To stay in the doubt attitude thingy, the most troubling videos I've came accross so far :

isdpofpofi

That certainly is some Unidentified Flying Object, that's no proof about ETs, but that still go over our understanding and actual knowledge.

I don't think that's true at all. If the average joe becomes educated, that is good for everyone. Exactly who is scared?
I think most people profit from the economy. Hell, my parents have a nice house and food on the table. Are they "the few"?

The average joe being educated is good for the future of everyone, it's sadening for the poor Joe, and it's annoying for governments and big lobbies, because critical thinking would make our beloved Joe less docile and more encline to protest/oppose profit generating decisions they (govt and lobbies) could pass if Joe was still a dumbfuck.
It's exactly what happened in the middle-east during those last years, young generations opened up and educated themselves with the internet and decided it was time to throw their "government" out. Previous generation had no clue about their conditions, like a fish in a bowl not being conscious that there's more than what it's actually being given.

Most of people people profit from the actual economy, that doesn't mean a larger amount of people could profit from a different one, more sane and less destructive for us and our environment. Like back to monarchy, kings have conquered and enrich their lands through wars; they built churchs, hospitals etc... the people profited of the monarchist system at that time, that didn't make it less of an awful system that had to be ended and replaced. This is the same with capitalism and consumerism, except it's on a larger scale and sets different problematics. We had our time with it, and now we need to change it because we know it's not compatible with our limited ressources and we can manage ourselves better with our actual technology. We're at the point it's slowing progress.

Nop they're not "the few" ;p Having food and a nice house make us average middle class I guess.

Even in USA the mean income is still way above mean rent+consumables.

Yep, at the cost of "third world countries" inhabitant's right to have a decent life (no war, no starvation, no ressources being looted by richer countries)

I don't think such system exists.

We're experiencing it just as we speak.

Last edited by deprav; Jun 14, 2013 at 03:08 PM.

STRIKING Reborn

deprav

Jun 15, 2013

deprav

Join Date: Dec 2010

Jun 15, 2013

Actual proof. Just because something is possible or likely doesn't mean it actually happened.

UFOs are just what the name suggests. They are not Alien Flying Objects...

Yep, as I told you I've none, but it's not irrational to consider this being strongly plausible because UFO's implies 3 possibilities :
-natural phenomenon
-man made technology (but that we, the people, never heard of)
-Extra-terrestrial technology.

I don't think that logic follows.

Counter culture has always existed and is often politically motivated.

Yes counter culture has always existed but was accessible only by the "aficionados" of the said culture and was hard to get into, since it wasn't welcome into the "mainstream" industry. And "counter culture" people has always been pointed out as marginals.

Now people can access "counter culture" as easily as they can access "industrial culture", and that bothers the industry (producing brainless shit for most), and therefore the political ideologies going along with counter culture become less "marginal" et explainable/understandable for a larger part of people.

As previously stated, value as determined by supply and demand is a universal concept, and simply can't be thrown out.

Barring the complete removal of all economic restrictions, I can't imagine anything could magically improve the situation.

Yep I understand the supply and demand being an universal concept, and I wasn't proposing to "throw it all out".
But the principle of an over-consumerist system is to "create more demand", not regarding the impact on the environment. Who needs a bigger/flatter TV to watch the same crap? A big part of last decade's "technological advances" are just marketing "straw-man" advances, faster gaming consoles, better HD TV, surround 38.1, plastic toys etc... (plus considering the programmed obsolescence to boost the demand). All those things don't exist to answer human needs, they just exist to boost the industrial complex, it's absurd considering the only reason to boost the industry is the profit of some people, at the expend of our health.

My point is to reach a "human scaled" system, not a system to create exorbitant profit for 5% of the population.

And that's fine. Most people have homes and food, why should they expect to get more without working for it?

Most people had home and food when we had kings as well.
The actual state of something is no proof of its efficience because it doesn't mean we can't still improve it. It's like you're staying fixed on a system who started a a long time ago, in this period of time we sure did improve technologically, and now that the system you defend have beared its fruits you don't want to harvest them and plant another tree that would answer the needs of more people.

And working hard for something is old fashionned propaganda, considering the number of unemployed people, we could divide the labour to make people work less for the same result. Even more if we considere all the jobs that would become useless if we quit the over-consumerist capitalism, it would mean a new distribution of the labour.

Not sure what country you are talking about, but I expect their problems are a product of their situation. Everyone should aim to live within their means, situations such as in Africa where the country is war-torn and experiences drought and famine, and yet families have 8 kids and expect to sustain them.

Erh, what you said here is pretty awful. The situation in Africa is because of European countries who decided to draw the boundaries (in Africa), which started a lot of ethnic wars. And while wars were going on, European countries looted the ressources, and still do.
Families having 8 kids in those countries do so because it's unlikely they'll all reach adulthood, and they don't have any contraceptive mean, because we let them die.
You can be sure in any poor countries struggling to survive, the wound goes deeper and is provoked by a richer countries taking advantage of the situation.

Like I said, I don't think such a system exists. Systematic rejection of group in favour of individual? It seems that like always group-think is the primary concern of everyone. Well-being as a focus is at an all time high. I think most people are mostly nice most of the time.

Most random people we know are nice, maybe. Even tho we've read on this forums people thinking "homeless people are just lazy fucks that deserve to be poor and sad", that's a pretty shitty mentality, and isn't every nice or sympathetic.
But that wasn't my point. I'm talking about people accessing to "decision-maker" places. You have to be cynical and egocentric to reach such positions, you need to "under-consider" humanbeings and see numbers, voters, profits, cutbacks etc... We're not talking about human politic anymore, in a "self-confident" liberal capitalism it's some human-ressources management.

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now saahsaap ! (read my answer to cow as well it might answer some points you're adressing me)

If you cannot tell me an alternative to capitalism, how could I get my eyes possibly off capitalism? There is nothing to look at… just your complaints why it sucks. As I said, create a system that works better and I'll look at it.

Because that's not my goal to give you pre-thought solutions. There are plenty things to look at if you see the flaws of a system and have the will to think and improve it.
My own claim is "true democracies", but to reach a state of true democracie people need to think by themselves instead of waiting for a messiah to bring all the answers while they wallow in inaction, brain dead.

Until then I will consider a well regulated capitalistic system with social implementations the best solution

But we aren't in a well regulated capitalistic system at all. Our functioning isn't democratic enough for the people to regulate the system as it pleases them. Decisions are made in "high-spheres" of society and little people like you and I have nothing to say about it.

Capitalism beats anarchy any day.

I agree on this, not ideologically but on the practical application.

You're saying that people are forced to do jobs they don't like and therefore capitalism sucks.
If not those people, WHO would do those jobs?

You're not seeing the whole picture. If we changed the system the structures would change as well : a lot of current tiresome jobs would become useless, industry would be reduced a lot.

Not all people are depressed either. Just because you suffer from Weltschmerz doesn't mean we should go ahead and pursue utopic ideas that will end up in even more suffering as experiments with social structures tend to go wrong.

I'm not a pessimist dude, I'm the exact opposite. I make a constatation of our actual state and claim we could do way better that the actual waste we are, because I know that we developpe depending on our environment. Therefore changing it for the better would improve our vision and behaviour toward our surrounding and our fellow man.
I'm not fighting for "utopic ideas" (I hate this word), I fight for what is just and is reasonnably appliable, educating people and critical thinking, preparing the people for setting up the future real democracies.

Through technological advancements our life standards have improved significantly over the past few hundred years. It's still improving very rapidly. Look at the industrialization of third world nations. While they may now suffer from cheap labour and exploitation, as you say, they use the invested work to improve their infrastructures and will soon be able to grow to strong and industrialized nantions.

Yep we have improved a lot, but once again, you can't attribute the speed of our improvement to our actual system. (re-read some post above)
Look at it this way : we can't know how advanced we would if we had a different system for the past decades, we might be less advanced, we might be more advanced, we might be exactly at the same point.
The late industrialization of the third world nations ain't necessarily a good thing when we come to the point we realize it's destroying our natural environment. You're defending the system from a pov late by a few decades. We presently know the impact and can't continue.
About the speed of our technological developpement : we could already have clean & endless energy (without fossil fuel) but it's being held back by the oil industry and politics because they'd lose profit and couldn't give as much money for politics' campaigns as they do now. Same thing for food, we could grow and eat bio clean food, but food lobbies like monsanto prevent it for profit, once again.

That's how it worked in Europe as well and my ancestors suffered a lot in that times. I do not suffer anymore because I live in a nation built on a good system that can provide me with all basic things I need.

Yep, it can provide YOU all the things you need, but we could provide a lot more people considering our actual knowledge. That's my entire point, the fact that you presently live a good life doesn't mean the system is perfect and couldn't be improved for the rest of the world.
Evolution, once again, never stops. Politic and economy evolve and we have to make it so, all systems are bound to end one day or the other because all systems improve our life, knowledges and technology until the point we realize it served its time and we need a better one.

If a factory dumps chemical waste into a river, ruining the business of a nearby fishery, the fishery owners are entitled to be paid damages. Things like air pollution can be handled by class action suits.

Paying damages won't "un-pollute" the river, as a class action suit won't "un-pollute" the air. Financial compensations are just a way to tell people "here's some money, now shut the fuck up and let us continue".

Also, I doubt you can provide a credible source that proves that 25% of all people and 50% of all working people in western countries take anti depressents.

That's the case in France, if you can read french I can give you a serious article about it. I just extrapoled to the whole western countries because it must be pretty close. Chemical Industry is still an industry trying to sell their products like any other industry.

A country that calls itself communistic very obviously will have communistic elements, even if you are too lazy to google them.

A country can be either capitalist or communist, not both. Capitalism with "communist" elements doesn't make it communism, it's at most an illusion because of their past communist culture, but it's essentialy a dictatorship. Nothing to do with communism anymore.

Glad statistics, facts and sources make you laugh. Your lack thereof is rather sad.

"Discussions" of uninterpreted links are boring and counter-constructive. And you graph made me laugh because we can interpret them in any way we want :
.1st graph : Are they mostly unfree because they have low GDP, or do they have low GDP because they are mostly unfree ?
.2nd graph : Passed Africa (where people are deep in shit because of western countries' politic) the happiness level doesn't have anything to do with the GDP, some people are "30% happier" (that made me laugh a lot, it makes no sense) than people having a GDP 4 times superior.
.3rd graph : Same thing as above, africa's deep in shit and the rest is pretty linear and have nothing to do with GDP.

Trying to calculate the happiness from a capital point of view is non-sense, we're a social specie, we need human contact, not a capital-specie needing bling-bling.

Last edited by deprav; Jun 15, 2013 at 02:44 AM. Reason: <24 hour edit/bump

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