Toribash
Original Post
Protests in Brazil
In the last few weeks, some protests have been sparked in São Paulo due to an increase in the price of public transport (another one). As Brazil hosts the Confederations Cup, the people kept going with their manifestations, that quickly summed up thousands of people. As the numbers grew a handful of people started to cause actual damage to public property. Well, then shit went down.



During what has become a riot, many innocent protestants, reporters and pedestrians have been harmed, people with cameras or phones were shot at with rubber bullets. The military police is also using teargas and pepper spray on protestants.

The manifestations have spread around the country. Even now, while I type this, there's one happening in my town. Every newscast in every channel is covering the events and the perspective of it stopping is just out of sight. Even the most watched Youtubers here are also exposing their opinions and taking part on the protests.

As time passed, these protests no longer focused on the new cost of the public transport only, but actually started being driven by the general aspects of how our government manages the people. Billions and Billions being invested on Stadiums, while the actual needed works are just being ignored. Roadways, hospitals, schools, everything.

Here's some information
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22946736

And you don't need to speak Portuguese to understand this:



As I said, during those protests there were, indeed, acts of vandalism. This is where I'm curious to know what do you guys think. Do people deserve to cause damage to the city, since they were exploited by the government for so long, or should they keep order in the manifestations?

In my case, I don't condone vandalism or any acts that cause damage to our property, but not because it would ''harm our identity or the public and government property'', but rather because, once you start giving the government and the media something to use against you, you're moving away from the possibility of change. Should the protests keep going in an organized manner, the people will appeal to a more respectful approach.

Quotes



We live in a democracy, and we have periodic elections for the public office, other words, all this is fault of the population. The manifestations here is only a way of the population "to correct" their mistakes.

The French Revolution was the "model" of revolution used by every future generations, as it complexity allied to it simplicity and brilliance. Yes, "brilliance" because it had the endorsement and involvement of various portions of the society, both the elite and the lower classes of the 3rd State in favor of "Equality, Liberty and Fraternity".

And it can not be very different from our little revolt.

Like our fuse, the French revolution it was the price of the bread, and it was the "last straw" to that society that faced problems of corruption from the clergy and the noble (1st and 2nd States), who hanged on live in luxury while the population lived in trash, not to mention the great influences and ideas of the Enlightenment era that did not fit with the French and socioeconomic status that seemed Utopian yet the people saw that they had the power.

This comparison serves to reassemble a little about our past and bring some back here, for us, to show that what is happening is not an isolated case in our Brazil, which is not something that will show up and die in a television newscast, and one day we will seeing the same images such demonstrations in the history books of the Secondary Schools.

I do not need to list that we are facing problems with corruption, we had the influences from the "Arab Spring", and the big majority of Brazilians want for the "European standard", who squander development, while we have one of the biggest GDP's of the world, with one of the most powerful economy of the world, with the best resources and technologies of the world, and however, with big socioeconomic troubles and our "last straw" was the price of the tickets, it sounds ridiculous. What they say to us, do not fit with our reality.

I know that a lot of rioters who went to streets asking for "price of tickets" do not ride by bus, i know that a lot of they are "rich" and ride by "chauffeur", and I know that a lot of they went to the streets only for the thrill of playing cat and mouse with the police. But, the great majority of "riches" who invaded the streets of São Paulo a few days ago called attention of who are already tired of so much corruption and lies. In my view, it was brilliant too. We are asking for our own Flag: "Order and Progress". I saw in the newspapers now that the manifestations are happening in all our capital federal units and only tend to grow.

I think that the people need to call attention of the government peacefully, yet they start to ignore us. And then, some "broken windows" are necessary. The politicians stole billion Reais from us every year. Some "vandalism" will not be so harmful.

PS.: For your records, not all protesters are vandals, only a small portion opted to destroy the city. I am not in favor of gratuitous violence. And we're NOT experiencing a civil war.

These are some images that symbolizes our manifestations

Last edited by iver; Jun 25, 2013 at 07:27 AM.
People are wrong because they put these politicians there. To "represent" them. People are wrong because they have not studied about the life of that politicians and even then voted for them. People really do not care about their votes. And the result is always the same: corrupt people in power.
Originally Posted by Chris937 View Post
People are wrong because they put these politicians there. To "represent" them. People are wrong because they have not studied about the life of that politicians and even then voted for them. People really do not care about their votes. And the result is always the same: corrupt people in power.

Although I agreed with some of what you said in your previous post, I must disagree with the statement that ''It's all our fault''. It's not that simple, were dealing with a whole nation here. Our community has little to no investment on education and you want constructive researches by our people, specially when we are filled with misleading propaganda by political parties and their promises of progress. Should we have the initiative to go look for information ourselves? Yes, we should. Is it wrong to blame it all on the government? Yes. But so it is wrong to blame it all on society (Damn, specially for a country like ours, its even wronger). We elect people who present us with a vision of progress, which was the case in every election campaign we ever had. Now imagine this, we both know how poor some regions of our country are, and how many are there. What do you think of the people who live there? Do you think they have the condition to go look for information on their social environment? Dude, most of them can't even go to school. And you know I'm not talking about a minority here. All they have is a television, that bombs them with massive propaganda on how this wonderful political party will make their lives better. That's all they fucking have. Then you have this one guy who is running for president/mayor/governor, he visits some of our extremely poor communities, shakes a few hands, smiles, takes pictures with children, giving even more emphasis on how fucking awesome their lives will be if they elect him. What do you think it's gonna happen?

We've been experiencing the results of that for all these years.

I'm saying it again, it's not all the government's fault that most of us don't seek to know more about our politicians, because people can have a will of their own and go do whatever they want with their lives. But in a community with no education whatsoever, provided with nothing but futile TV shows and misleading news, filled with lies to show them how wonderful their country is, and how 'charismatic', 'cheerful' and 'peaceful' we are, there is no chance that is gonna happen.
Originally Posted by sidvicious View Post
Although I agreed with some of what you said in your previous post, I must disagree with the statement that ''It's all our fault''. It's not that simple, were dealing with a whole nation here. Our community has little to no investment on education and you want constructive researches by our people, specially when we are filled with misleading propaganda by political parties and their promises of progress. Should we have the initiative to go look for information ourselves? Yes, we should. Is it wrong to blame it all on the government? Yes. But so it is wrong to blame it all on society (Damn, specially for a country like ours, its even wronger). We elect people who present us with a vision of progress, which was the case in every election campaign we ever had. Now imagine this, we both know how poor some regions of our country are, and how many are there. What do you think of the people who live there? Do you think they have the condition to go look for information on their social environment? Dude, most of them can't even go to school. And you know I'm not talking about a minority here. All they have is a television, that bombs them with massive propaganda on how this wonderful political party will make their lives better. That's all they fucking have. Then you have this one guy who is running for president/mayor/governor, he visits some of our extremely poor communities, shakes a few hands, smiles, takes pictures with children, giving even more emphasis on how fucking awesome their lives will be if they elect him. What do you think it's gonna happen?

We've been experiencing the results of that for all these years.

I'm saying it again, it's not all the government's fault that most of us don't seek to know more about our politicians, because people can have a will of their own and go do whatever they want with their lives. But in a community with no education whatsoever, provided with nothing but futile TV shows and misleading news, filled with lies to show them how wonderful their country is, and how 'charismatic', 'cheerful' and 'peaceful' we are, there is no chance that is gonna happen.

So you are talking about the media manipulation.

You are returning for the starting point of this cycle:
The media is all manipulated by the politicians and by the big companies here in Brazil. And then, they (big companies and politicians) can manipulate the population using the media as a medium. And then, they influence population in their votes. And finally, population vote for politicians who stole money and manipulate them, restarting the cycle.

But you are forgetting that the population do not have only the television as a communication medium. They have their work, their friends, their kids... And I'm sure that at least one of them are not manipulated too. The digital inclusion has reached even in the Favelas. The population certainly can get access to information. They just do not care for it. Ask whoever you want, but very few people will remember who they voted in the last election. Some people just sell your votes as an object. This proves that they do not take it serious. And finally, the television says "vote in politician X", and then they just vote without at least asking "What he will do for our country?" or "Is he reliable?".

I really expect people are learning with those mistakes and then starts to take their duties seriously. Or our country will never get in "Order AND Progress". Always only "In progress". =\
Last edited by iver; Jun 25, 2013 at 07:10 AM.
Even in the case of Favelas having access to internet (which is not, by any chance, as common as it is in a community like ours) you can't seriously think people would just go for it and make productive researches about politics and the such. They just ''don't care''? It's not the case of not caring. Its the case of not being given the chance to stand for what they believe to be right, to be correct, because at no moment in their lives they received education. I mean actual education, not just learning how to make an Ionic Bond. And you should know, there are so many communities in Brazil that are so much worse than Favelas, in terms of welfare and social structure. Do you think you'll be seeing those places on TV? People there live overwhelmed by crime and violence, some of them on the brink of starvation. With no money, no health, no security, nothing that every human being deserves. In many cases their only choice is to engage in a life of crime as well. ''Their work, their friends, their kids'', well, what about them? What information would they get from a kid? What information would they get from their work, or friends? Aren't they all under the same circumstances? please note, a community like a Favela is not something you can compare to your or my community. It's completely different. If you can look for information on your own it doesn't mean that someone who has nothing in life can, specially when they can barely afford their basic needs. Also note that the eagerness for knowledge is a result of an educated mind.

You should remember that most of political campaigns focus on poor communities like Favelas, oh and they invest a lot on it. ''The Media is manipulated''? No, it takes care of itself, the Media itself wants profit, it makes money out of people's ignorance. A nation that thinks, that comes up with its own ideas, opinions, is their worst nightmare. Plus, I don't have anyone among my family or friends that voted randomly for any candidate. Another detail, a politician that has no history of corruption is not necessarily the salvation for a government. What is right for the people to do is happening right now in our streets.
Last edited by Sidvicious; Jun 25, 2013 at 04:24 PM.
Chamara, please.

Everyone who stands for their rights must be respected equally. There's no such thing as ''this manifestation for justice is better than that other one''.

And if you're only talking about the physical damages in your country, I'm aware of them, and I'm sorry it is true. Virtually everyone here who watches a newscast knows about that, and some people believe it helped spark the revolt here. Now if you think that the fact people there being treated more violently shows they have more determination than we do, I must say you're being childish.
Originally Posted by sidvicious View Post
Even in the case of Favelas having access to internet (which is not, by any chance, as common as it is in a community like ours) you can't seriously think people would just go for it and make productive researches about politics and the such. They just ''don't care''? It's not the case of not caring. Its the case of not being given the chance to stand for what they believe to be right, to be correct, because at no moment in their lives they received education. I mean actual education, not just learning how to make an Ionic Bond. And you should know, there are so many communities in Brazil that are so much worse than Favelas, in terms of welfare and social structure. Do you think you'll be seeing those places on TV? People there live overwhelmed by crime and violence, some of them on the brink of starvation. With no money, no health, no security, nothing that every human being deserves. In many cases their only choice is to engage in a life of crime as well. ''Their work, their friends, their kids'', well, what about them? What information would they get from a kid? What information would they get from their work, or friends? Aren't they all under the same circumstances? please note, a community like a Favela is not something you can compare to your or my community. It's completely different. If you can look for information on your own it doesn't mean that someone who has nothing in life can, specially when they can barely afford their basic needs. Also note that the eagerness for knowledge is a result of an educated mind.

You should remember that most of political campaigns focus on poor communities like Favelas, oh and they invest a lot on it. ''The Media is manipulated''? No, it takes care of itself, the Media itself wants profit, it makes money out of people's ignorance. A nation that thinks, that comes up with its own ideas, opinions, is their worst nightmare. Plus, I don't have anyone among my family or friends that voted randomly for any candidate. Another detail, a politician that has no history of corruption is not necessarily the salvation for a government. What is right for the people to do is happening right now in our streets.

Originally Posted by Agentmax View Post
Chris doesn't seem to grasp the under-privileges of certain areas (slums,ghettos,favelas,etc.) that sure it's eaiser to say well it's their fault they elected them. (Might be re-saying what Sid just said) but when your government keeps you dumb and you know nothin over then what you've been told. It's not really their fault. Also don't use the "well they should go out and seek answers" argument. If you are told one thingis this way your entire life and someone says tht one thing is now a different way, would you be so quick to believe them? This is how the politicians got into power. Now with the riots and stuff I feel they finally did smarten up, but to say they should of instantly knew what was going on is pure bigotry

Ok...
I was just starting to like this debate. But you do not rely on anything. Presenting only arguments without substantiate...
Gentlemen, the human being is not naive.
From a philosophical standpoint, Hobbes demonstrated that he is corrupted by society.
From the psychological point of view, if it were as innocent as you say, it would be an eternal child.
It's easy to say that's not my problem, not yours, not the Brazilian people. It's easy to say that all the problems comes from politicians, Sartre endorses this fact: "It's easier to blame others, human being will do this".
To say that people do not know the problems of the country itself is absurd. Wherever they are, they are here, in Brazil. And the poorer and isolated it is, the more these problems will be noticed by themselves.
You can not say that I "doesn't seem to grasp the under-privileges of certain areas", I lived in a Favela of São Paulo. I know what I am saying because I saw it near.
There are favelas poorer than which I lived? Yes, there are. But you can not say that these people do not know that the government are lying to them.
They are corrupted.
They only want the money from "Bolsa Família". You saw this fact when people spread that "Bolsa Familia" was over, our banks are still fixing the damages.
They only want to live in peace, without worrying about "complicated" things like politics our elections. It's easier to sell their votes and take some money to their families.
Just think in a different standpoint. Think over this.

I'm just ending my part in this debate.
Last edited by iver; Jun 27, 2013 at 01:58 AM.