Toribash is all about getting good and having fun by winning. Not by using a really cheap move like shovelling or kicks and stuff. No matter who you are, getting shoveled pr lift kicked (more shoveling), your gonna get somewhat angry no matter what your opinio towards the matter is.

I think the main goal of toribash is to have the most skill which is why a lot of people dislike shoveling, lift kicking, headbutts. To become a better player, you must learn how to play with all different kinds of styles not just dm kicks or lifts in a mod like ABD. That is why a mod like rkmma would be a better all around mod. Everything you do in rkmma is much harder and takes more skill like pushing or dm's other than that lucky opener dm.

When you play a new player in rkmma, 9 times out of 10, you will win. Why, because it takes skill. Unlike ABD or aikido where you can lift or dm kick.

I agree with Klayster with how if you have to counter a shovel each time, there's really no point to playing in a duel, tourney, or betting lobby which is mainly abd becuase that would be no fun

sw4.tbm and aikido5.tbm, sure

just to weed out most of the cheese crap possible and have rules dictated by mod settings only

So what you're saying is you actually have no credibility talking about cheeses because you in fact can't deal with them yourself? We're talking about "cheap ways to win" and you're not allowing yourself the chance to show that you can in fact rise above them.

I'm not name calling by the way- I'm simply stating if you're not able to counter cheeses effectively in a competitive environment, you probably aren't an authority on cheeses. It's fine that you make mods where you can't do these moves, and that's what you are an authority on, but to say "Oh I'm good at aikido, just not the one that everyone except me plays" is silly.

So what you're saying is you actually have no credibility talking about playing without cheeses because you in fact can play only with them yourself? We're talking about "not cheap ways to win" and you're not allowing yourself the chance to show that you can in fact rise above them.


if it's infact RECOGNIZED BY EVERYONE AS CHEESE what is wrong with removing it or making it harder to execute?

in dark souls pvp chugging estus flusk, fishing for backstabs circling around with shield up are cheese ways to play.

in dark souls 2 backstab fishing was slightly nerfed, guard break was added to punish turtles who hide behind shield and later estus was removed from the arena.

to make an analogy with toribash: there was first sambo.tbm kicks, dms, lifts and a bit of suplexes were utilized.

everyone was playing it, then demand for mod that does favor suplexes a bit more arised. here goes aikido.tbm with higher gravity and higher dm threshold.

needless to say that lifts and liftkicks were frown upon

the next step is abd, which was created in order to get rid of lifters, but since noone thought that people will go for dms and point holding as the lowest common dominator, dt and ft were not changed. so the meta has changed completely.

trying to weed out cheese such as shovel (yes we all can deal with it, but it's still annoying)
we tried to limit grab on torso and legs. it proved to be a good idea as shovels and hooks become less probable, later removing head grab aswell to make it more balanced, as being grabbed by head and lifted out is not much and the only way to counter is is doublegrab opponent torso.

blatant lifting was generally removed by making shoulders ungrabable aswell as allowing you to use it (when shoulder is grabbed you can't move it), so after all small changes we got almost cheese free mod where you can't be locked by grabs, but by opponent skill. (pec lock)

dm kicks just like your all time favorite thing, openers in wushu, hold very slim skill value compared to wrestling opponent to ground or all the shoulders/elbows work required to do throw or turnover, so we turned on self damage, so attempts to win with dm openers were midgated aswell,

so in the end we have mod that does favor the very meta of aikido when it's originated, aikido7 and later to remove another cheese - contracting wrists, since getting inner grab in aikido on the very first turn does not involve any skill and give too much of an advantage, aikido5 was created

of course these are not as popular as abd, since it does require more skill then just trying to grab everything and lift opponent out and does not allow dm openers people found on youtube.

you can ask around more veteran aikido players why they prefer aikido over abd if you want, you will get this very result

The nature of cheeses is they are high risk high reward strategies that keep players honest. You cited Dark Souls, but I've never played it so I couldn't tell you anything about it. Instead, allow me to similarly explain a situation where cheeses are seen at the highest level of play, but teach you what it is and why it's important.

Starcraft II: In bronze league of Starcraft II, almost every Zerg player does something called a "6 pool" at one point or another. What this means is, despite Starcraft II being a game of macroing all of your production units, making as many new units as possible, expanding to create larger bases, acquiring upgrades, etc. along with microing units to be more effective in army style warfare- some newer players build just 1 more worker unit than they start out with, than immediately rush a building that allows the Zerg race to spawn their basic attacking unit. In doing so- they usually create 6 attacking units around ~6 minutes into the match.

This is a cheese. It is INCREDIBLY high risk because you sacrifice all of your resources and 1 worker into fighting units while they are building up their work force. Many new players don't know about this tactic, or are far too liberal about how long they wait until they have basic fighting units available, so those 6 units infiltrate their base, kill their workers, and the game ends right then and there.

Now Starcraft II knows about this, and they could have said "the nature of Starcraft is about macroing and microing large armies, scouting and reacting to the enemy, etc. so to keep the game rules in line with the meta we want to instill, no unit can attack another unit or building until 10 minutes". But they didn't. Why? Because there's an answer WITHIN the game itself to stopping the strategy, counter it, and win specifically because your opponent took the risk to cheese. It's important that this cheese existed additionally because it kept the opposing player honest about his build order. And to throw some players at the highest levels off- sometimes even professional Starcraft II players do a 6 pool on their opponent in tournament settings.

Now let's compare this "6 pool" in Starcraft II, as I explained it thoroughly to you, with the likes of a Snapkick. A snapkick, is a pure as day example of a cheese. It's very high risk, very high reward. A newer, less experienced player in TK, will encounter someone who has a high speed kick attacking on the 2nd turn, get DM'd or at least scored on a bunch, and lose right then and there. The TK community could've made the engage distance larger to make it so you couldn't reach someone with a kick in 2 turns, but they didn't. Why? Because the solution to the problem existed WITHIN the game itself and the cheese kept the players more honest about their first turns. A snapkick against an experienced TK player is almost a guaranteed loss for the snapkicker. The expert player will simply grab where the knee will be, get the knee downward to dismember because of it, and that's game over. They can choose to run, or dm the leg, or beat up on this completely invested high risk no reward situation for the snapkicker.

Hopefully you now know why cheesing is an important element of the game and why we shouldn't look to change the mod simply because a cheese exists. If a strategy is BROKEN, rather than high risk high reward, then you need to say it's the mod's fault and change it. At best I'll give you that Shoveling and Contracted Wrists are "over-centralizing", because you're forced to deal with it in a very specific way.

Finally, I have asked around to more veteran aikido players. They love aikido way more than aikidobigdojo. That being said: the truly great players I know that are far better than you or I at aikido, never once complained when they got shoveled or lift kicked or leg grabbed. They certainly didn't retreat to a different mod either.

~DrHax signing off from this thread. Good discussion mate

i assume it was zerg rush example, but still

you talk too much about high risk - high reward.
where it is in aikido?

if you are shoveled you have 2 options - dm opponent shoulders or go for turnover with free hand. thats it. what are the risks for your opponent? none if he use the brain.

where is risk in using contracted wrists or low grabs?
none. at all. when you contract wrists you get huge advantage because you suddenly in one turn, get inner grab and disable opponent's wrists and get direct control over his elbows. one turn, one move that can not be countered if not anticipated and you are left with 2 active joints less.

of course you can win when you are caught with inside grab, but it's an uphill battle, since you are in disadvantage when your opponent raise arms and extend pecs, you can not save using wrists since you don't have control over it and when he extend wrists, your elbows can't counter it.

if you get low grabbed your options are limited aswell, you can try to counter incoming lift by double grabbing torso so he would not be able to fully raise arms, or you can go for dm, or again, you can go for turnover with free hand.

where is risk/reward? if you care to talk about cheese in aikido, care to explain me where is this risk, without all times favorite throwing burst and leaving claiming to be victorious.

i will probably waste a hour or so to make a graph showing what joints are required in order to play effectively in each mod when i wll get back home, just to make it obvious.

this is not an answer to risk/reward question, i will reply to your concern as soon as i will get this one first, k?

also:


also what poop said


the sad part is that lowest common dominator is now being promoted instead of being frowned upon.
thats understandable, most of staff who advocate shovel/cheese don't play or care about the game anymore, another part are people who follow the trend.

by this logic the only meta is shovel, if you don't - your problem, correct?

okay, here we go:

So what you're saying is that because certain moves limit you they should be removed?

there are ways to limit and lock your opponent without imbalanced things as inner grab or low grab.

you can lock opponent using shoulder or low grab.
result - opponent locked and can't move freely.

you can do same by locking opponents pecs and shoulders, by using your arms and pecs.
result - opponent locked and can't move freely.

as you can see you can get the very same result, but skill required to do it differs.
we both can agree that restricting opponent with shoulder or low grabs is easiler than doing the same by positioning your joints, right?


You can't be serious. That's what this game is about, you are on totally equal terms before the first turn-frame and how you decide to move after then on is down to you and you alone.

by this logic all we need is shovel. why bother coming up with something new? you just need to get a good opener and the one who shovel out faster wins

this is the very way you advocate right now.

now, let's prolong the equality you have on turn zero to the whole game, what you have is match that does not rely on who's first mostly, but who knows better.
if you can't disable opponent shoulder with grab - you need to find another way to immobilize him. locking with arms. and it require some skill and understanding what are you doing instead of opener, logical?

You cannot just remove things you don't like because you don't like them - there's no logic behind that.
i absolutely agree on this, however since we have grabs mechanics the way it is, there are no much alternatives.

if grabs were ball axis, so it would not be fixed but able to rotate and change angle, it would be way more dynamic, so joints would not deform on doublegrabs and allow more movement.
if grabs were breakable, you would not have to deal with noob hug for entire match, but be able to break out.

in this case there would not need any artificial restrictions to ensure that matches are not looking like 2 glued pieces of wood stuck together.
atm most matches without artificaial grab restrictions look exactly like that.

can we both agree that having ability to break up an not being deformed is better than being superglued?


Just because you're getting beaten by shovels, inside grabs and leg kicks doesn't mean that those kinds of moves are broken or unfair.

as i said earlier, we all can counter this, and even described what limited options we have to do it, but these things are obviously annoying. can we agree on that?
idk, compare kick lift replays to replays with throws and see the difference.

You removing grabs on the entirety of legs and shoulders & even restricting wrist movement is only testament to how far you'll go to avoid people beating you - not your skill level.
as i said earlier here, fix grabs and there would not need in any artificial restrictions. and there will be place skill instead of who shovel / low grab first.

Some people who are truly competitive will adapt & overcome to try and set a new meta, not change the mod completely to fit their own definition of "fair".
what new meta?.. for last couple of years all new meta i see is everyone advocating shovel, inside grab and nothing else

may be you managed to set new meta in aikido? please do share.

all adjustments i make is to favor meta which is different from get low grabs, stuck in one piece and try to lift opponent out

question to you: what is more enjoyable and what require more skill?

please, do answer this one as it's really important to continue the discussion

and as i said, i will waste a hour or so to make a picture showcasing average amount of joints required to be effective for both classic and let's say a7, when i'll get home,
so the difference will be more or less obvious

ah, almost forgot, in current meta shovel, contracted wrists, low grabs and lift kicks are lowest common dominator because of it's effectivity, what's wrong in raising the bar?
it's really amusing how much resistance you get when it comes to changing meta in a game where it can be done by anyone in a notepad, compared to games where only developers can adjust it (dark souls for example, and yet devs change it to make it more dynamic. if in ds1 mlg meta was circling around with shield up fishing for backstab, in ds2 you can't do it as effectively as it was anymore, guard break and less chain stabs)

i understand nothing in this post. good luck trying to convince everyone to use your straregies that are clearly inferior to anything anyone would throw at you atm

also, you said throws need to make a "comeback", implying they were once a thing. i am going to trust you and assume it is true because im too newfag to know
so people used to do throws and now they dont. yeah, its called evolution. evolution to better techniques that were made to outperform those throws of yours, which would explain why every aikido replay claiming its a throw is always against a scrub. you should probably catch up instead of complaining about how nobody uses your strats anymore

the duelers are amazing because they win, not because they look pretty doing so

last part: i am actually amazed that leg grabs are a real problem for you, you must be so concentrated on doing le epic realistic throws that you forget you are playing a tb match
makes sense actually, the people using those "real" techniques are the only ones complaining about shovels and lifts, besides the unexperienced and new

i really dont see why one would try to perform real throws and try to use them competitively in tb. the toris are nothing like real people, the grab mechanics are different, the bodyparts dont have the correct mass proportionally, not enough joints, no rotation

in other words: m-muh meta!

indeed, low grabs, contracted wrists, shovels and lift kicks are the current lowest common dominator, whats wrong in raising the bar?



to be honest, general concept is appliable enough for throws are effective, the only problem is grab mechanics.

i would recommend you to do something like throw once successfully, so you will see and feel the whole difference. if you struggle, you may use tutorial provided.

once you able to execute something complex you would never come back to more simplistic approach.

i can bet that you was using shovel extensively as a beginner and after you learned how to suplex or lift kick you are not using shovel that much anymore, correct?
same goes for all techniques