Originally Posted by snake
indeed, low grabs, contracted wrists, shovels and lift kicks are the current lowest common dominator, whats wrong in raising the bar?
raising the bar is fine, but you are trying to raise it to something that can be defeated by current techniques
to be honest, general concept is appliable enough for throws are effective, the only problem is grab mechanics.
i would recommend you to do something like throw once successfully, so you will see and feel the whole difference. if you struggle, you may use tutorial provided.
once you able to execute something complex you would never come back to more simplistic approach.
i can bet that you was using shovel extensively as a beginner and after you learned how to suplex or lift kick you are not using shovel that much anymore, correct?
same goes for all techniques
is it enough to perform those throws regularly though? tb has insane amount of possibilities and i bet a decent amount of them will put you in a position where a throw is not possible
last part: i never even knew what a shovel was because the only mods i played until 2012 were tk and meatspin
oh yeah
Originally Posted by pusga
raising the bar is fine, but you are trying to raise it to something that can be defeated by current techniques
i guess this assumption is the very root of problem why we are talking on different languages.
throws can and can't be defeted by current techniques like any other current technique, based on skill.
the whole issue is that you can not throw people when they try to cheese.
having proper grabs will allow to break out of low grabs and ignore torso grabs, so your opponent can't dictate your game, on other hand, people will be able to break out from throws, so the game will be more dynamic.
idk, watch some judo on tv, with proper grabs focus will be shifted from "who low grabs first" to who grabs what at right time and who breaks out, involving more skill and general understanding of concepts.
do you play flight sims so i can make an analogy?
you can't throw people if your torso or legs are grabbed, so you switch to turnover with free hand.
Originally Posted by pusga
is it enough to perform those throws regularly though? tb has insane amount of possibilities and i bet a decent amount of them will put you in a position where a throw is not possible
it's possible in almost any situation, except obvious cheeses i mentioned, but result will varry, for example you can get throw forward instead of what you initially intended, such as throw backward, adjusting to situation.
Originally Posted by pusga
last part: i never even knew what a shovel was because the only mods i played until 2012 were tk and meatspin
i could try analogy with snap kicks, and some other more advanced technique as an example, but i have no clue about tk, so i will skip it.
Last edited by snake; Aug 25, 2014 at 11:26 AM.
from all "can't beat it" while i can, there is a rational part in your post.
not axis joints but grabs, take a look at wii version of tb as an example,
as i said numerous times, when we will have ball axis breakabale grabs (not wrist joints, but grab bubbles)
there would not be need in any restrictions, as you will be able to break out from grabs, including throws
low grabs would not be as effective as they are now since you will be able to break from it, you will also be able to shake off my arms when i try to grab you for throw, but the game will change from who grab first to who grabs right at right time.
is it bad?
the only way to counter low/inner grabs right now is to switch to turnover, there is no other meta, (except dm)
isn't it very limited?
as it is right now in order to counter shovels, snapkicks and inside grabs your options are very limited, and thats bad.
you will had to wait aprox 5 hours more untill i will make a picture so you will understand
sambo is 7-8 years old, aikido is 7 years old, abd is 6 years old. we made a full circle and back to sambo meta.
matches are focused on lifts, dm kicks and doublegrab again, only this time gravity is higher and dojo is slightly bigger than what used to be in sambo.
if you know how to shift focus from shovels, snapkicks and inside grabs in favor of more complex techniques, i'm all ears.
right now if grabs aren't going to be changed to be ball axis and to be breakable, we are not going to see any new meta even after 6 more years, i guarantee that, unless you artificially try to limit grabs.
can we go with aikido direction already again?
Originally Posted by Gynx
In regards to the rotation axis of joints, if you're going to make the argument that joints need to rotate more realistically then I'm confused as to why you'd restrict movement completely in one of your mods,
not axis joints but grabs, take a look at wii version of tb as an example,
as i said numerous times, when we will have ball axis breakabale grabs (not wrist joints, but grab bubbles)
there would not be need in any restrictions, as you will be able to break out from grabs, including throws
low grabs would not be as effective as they are now since you will be able to break from it, you will also be able to shake off my arms when i try to grab you for throw, but the game will change from who grab first to who grabs right at right time.
is it bad?
the only way to counter low/inner grabs right now is to switch to turnover, there is no other meta, (except dm)
isn't it very limited?
Originally Posted by Gynx
we are discussing aikido as it is now, shovels, snapkicks and inside grabs are all counterable within the current limitations of the game and whilst changing the core structure of the game may make it easier for you, it doesn't mean that it should happen or that you are any less bad.
as it is right now in order to counter shovels, snapkicks and inside grabs your options are very limited, and thats bad.
Originally Posted by Gynx
See what I said about countering being possible without changing joint movement & how being able to move less joints =/= more skill, that applies here too.
you will had to wait aprox 5 hours more untill i will make a picture so you will understand
Originally Posted by Gynx
Just because you haven't seen a change in the meta doesn't mean there will never be one - besides, if people are more about making new mods instead of breaking the game with new and innovative moves like you seem to be the wait will be even longer. Your point seems to have evolved from "waaa it's unfair" to "waaa change the game mechanics" to "waaa im bored of the meta", please stick to a point and run with it - you're actually clinging to any reason to make people conform to your own playstyle. I'll reiterate - maybe aikido isn't for you.
sambo is 7-8 years old, aikido is 7 years old, abd is 6 years old. we made a full circle and back to sambo meta.
matches are focused on lifts, dm kicks and doublegrab again, only this time gravity is higher and dojo is slightly bigger than what used to be in sambo.
Originally Posted by Gynx
Nothing wrong with raising the bar although I'd argue that you're not raising the bar by completely changing the base mechanics of a mod, you're merely avoiding what beats you.
if you know how to shift focus from shovels, snapkicks and inside grabs in favor of more complex techniques, i'm all ears.
right now if grabs aren't going to be changed to be ball axis and to be breakable, we are not going to see any new meta even after 6 more years, i guarantee that, unless you artificially try to limit grabs.
sambo - low gravity, low dt and ft
effective techniques: lifts, dm kicks,
less effective: suplex, throw
low gravity - easiler to lift out
low dm and ft - easiler to hit and dm/decap
harder to dq opponent inside the ring, as it's hard to step out
(dojo is big enough)aikido - higher gravity, a bit harder to lift out, harder to dm
effective techniques: suplex, throw, lift
less effective: dm kicks
it's easiler to dq opponent outside the ring or inside when he
avoid stepping out
kicks are less effective as you can dq opponent in easiler waysabd - dojo is big, same as above
effective techniques: lifts, dm kicks and doublegrab
ineffective techniques: suplex
suplex is useless as it's harder to make opponent step out
of the ring so it lead to tripoding and point holding.
so we are back to dm kicks and lifting out meta of sambocan we go with aikido direction already again?
Last edited by snake; Aug 25, 2014 at 12:18 PM.
You are all putting far to much effort into this thread...
But I think it is worth pointing out a few things, first being that in your so called "fair versions" of aikido etc, you can still do all the cheap plays, there is nothing you can do to game rules in aikido to prevent lifts. When I am playing someone and I have double hand grabs it is then easiest for me to lift someone all the way out the dojo.
Another thing you said was about "leg grabs" being under cheap play but, leg grabs can actually be a pretty good counter move to lifts etc, and all these other so called cheap moves work well as counters.
Basically in your fair mod it allows a garenteed hand grab where lifts are garenteed and counters are harder to do because of the lack of alternative grabs E.g legs, glutes, shoulders are all removed.
But I think it is worth pointing out a few things, first being that in your so called "fair versions" of aikido etc, you can still do all the cheap plays, there is nothing you can do to game rules in aikido to prevent lifts. When I am playing someone and I have double hand grabs it is then easiest for me to lift someone all the way out the dojo.
Another thing you said was about "leg grabs" being under cheap play but, leg grabs can actually be a pretty good counter move to lifts etc, and all these other so called cheap moves work well as counters.
Basically in your fair mod it allows a garenteed hand grab where lifts are garenteed and counters are harder to do because of the lack of alternative grabs E.g legs, glutes, shoulders are all removed.
Originally Posted by FistofLife
You are all putting far to much effort into this thread...
But I think it is worth pointing out a few things, first being that in your so called "fair versions" of aikido etc, you can still do all the cheap plays, there is nothing you can do to game rules in aikido to prevent lifts. When I am playing someone and I have double hand grabs it is then easiest for me to lift someone all the way out the dojo.
he can use arms and stand on one leg, not a problem to counter.
Originally Posted by FistofLife
Another thing you said was about "leg grabs" being under cheap play but, leg grabs can actually be a pretty good counter move to lifts etc, and all these other so called cheap moves work well as counters.
yes, i did mentioned this earlier...
Originally Posted by snake
if you get low grabbed your options are limited aswell, you can try to counter incoming lift by double grabbing torso so he would not be able to fully raise arms, or you can go for dm, or again, you can go for turnover with free hand.
Originally Posted by FistofLife
Basically in your fair mod it allows a garenteed hand grab where lifts are garenteed and counters are harder to do because of the lack of alternative grabs E.g legs, glutes, shoulders are all removed.
the problem is that grabs deform body and unbreakable, what makes it all static.
so if you do so as you just described you and your opponent will end up deformed in one laggy mess.
limiting grab does prevent it, but it's also fair to say that it limits your alternatives. in any case when you can not be stuck in one piece in doublebrab you can counter by overrotation, more risky and harder to pull off, but it's certainly better than being stuck.
i can probably find replay later explaining the concept, but the thing is you get another alternatives based on fact that you are less likely to be stuck in once piece. if you know you can slip freely you can attemt different approaches and techniques that are impossible due to static nature of double grabs in classic aikido.
for example you can do overrotation saves rather freely or you can use techniques such as hip throws forward, where your movement can't be locked since opponent can't get a solid line connection with your torso because he can't grab it.
very same effect can be achieved by making grabs ball axis.
and breakable, just for dynamics of the game
is the part about alternatives understandable?..
