Is Islam a violent religion that needs to be avoided?

Sniper

Jan 11, 2015

Sniper

Raconteur

Join Date: Apr 2011

Jan 11, 2015

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

I'm not sure that I could find any evidence to support this.

Taking the example of the largest Muslim country in the world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Indonesia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Indonesia
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-20896966 (closest I can find on bikes, did you misinterpret this?)
etc

Sorry but I tried my best to find evidence to support your claims but can't see any.

Yes, I live in Indonesia, and I know the condition of this country.
Women can ride bikes, women receive an equal amount of education, women can vote, etc.

u wot m8

SmallBowl

Jan 11, 2015

SmallBowl

Join Date: May 2014

Jan 11, 2015

How ignorant do you have to be to start a thread like this.

The answer is no end of discussion.

Ele

Jan 12, 2015

Ele

Join Date: Sep 2009

Jan 12, 2015

Originally Posted by protonitron

Islam is no more sexist than other well known religions which do not get nearly as much criticism for it.

It is more sexist and denies many more rights. I know you're trying to be diplomatic and everything, but it's just not comparable - Islam's in its own league.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

Not that I can attribute to Islam.

I mean, if I can't see any in the biggest Muslim country in the world, where else would I see it? :S

It really makes me angry that you can sit there, be all smug, and say 'I don't see it' when all it takes is the smallest amount of effort and inclination to look it up. If you didn't enter into every argument with an agenda to play the devil's advocate and do your best to 'win' every argument through adolescent methods, then it's wouldn't piss me off so much. It's because I know you're just doing this to fuck me around, that I'm so annoyed.

That said, Islam's judicial system, Sharia law, absoultely tramples over any rights that would've been afforded to women (in the UDHR, if most Muslims countries bothered to participate in it). Read this, if you aren't too lazy/are actually genuinely keen to learn and be a part of this discussion. Read that, and tell me again, that you still can't possibly see that the Islamic code of law, Sharia, doesn't deny women rights.

Last edited by Ele; Jan 12, 2015 at 05:10 AM.

SmallBowl

Jan 12, 2015

SmallBowl

Join Date: May 2014

Jan 12, 2015

Originally Posted by protonitron

The thread was made by redundant to port a decent discussion in another thread (rather than deleting all the posts about that debate for being off topic and irrelevant to the original thread which was about mourning for Victims if the Oaris attack I think).

He said that in the first post of the thread. Don't call people ignorant while ignoring the explanation of why the thread exists. And if you are going to post on the discussion forum please don't just say the thread is stupid, if you don't want to discuss the question properly (and calling redundant ignorant for making the thread doesn't count as proper discussion) then don't bother posting on it.

Saying a religion should be avoided is ignorant however you look at it, that is the title of the thread.

ynvaser

Jan 12, 2015

ynvaser

ub3r

Join Date: May 2009

Jan 12, 2015

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

"Most Islamic countries have signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights"

Then they go on to say that the ~~ragheads~~ Muslims have their own version. You quote out of context way too much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_D...ights_in_Islam
^
"Article 24 of the declaration states: "All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Sharia." Article 19 also says: "There shall be no crime or punishment except as provided for in the Sharia.""
^So you can still get stoned for sleeping around. Yay.

Also, signing a paper and actually adhering by it is a different cake alltogether.

Last edited by ynvaser; Jan 12, 2015 at 12:09 PM.

Ele

Jan 12, 2015

Ele

Join Date: Sep 2009

Jan 12, 2015

ynvaser, let's stop referring to them as ragheads.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

These seem like some pretty average things to complain about.
>lesser inheritance
>modesty law
>male head of house instead of woman

It shows how dishonest you are that you leave out;
"A woman becomes subservient to her husband and needs his permission to: "leave the house, take up employment, or to engage in fasting or forms of worship other than what is obligatory."
An unmarried woman is under the guardianship of her nearest male relative."

No wait. You're right. You've researched your position thoroughly. Women are totally on equal footing with men under Sharia. You're embarrassing yourself.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

Ignoring that they specifically talk about wahabist countries

No. Sharia =/= wahhabism. They're talking about Sharia law. Many countries (with low numbers of wahhabists (basically any country outside the Arabic Pennisula)) have Sharia as the primary law. And I don't see how wahhabist countries having Sharia discredits the fact that women have less rights under it.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

Also, maybe you should do some research?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...f_Human_Rights
"Most Islamic countries have signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights"

I'm going to love this. You're the one that needs to do their research. Since 2000, the (57!) members of the OIC (Organisation of Islamic Cooperation) have decided to to abandon the UDHR and follow their own Cairo Declaration - which is modified to fit in acccordance with Sharia. Wiki so helpfully sums it up as "reaffirming the inequalities inherent in Islamic law and tradition in terms of religion, gender, sexuality". YOU do the research.

Last edited by Ele; Jan 12, 2015 at 11:17 AM.

xlr84life

Jan 12, 2015

xlr84life

Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2012

Jan 12, 2015

This thread should be closed already, all they do is insult insult insult and accuse without academic knowledge of these topics. They simple google what they want to find.

They can come up with a million different accusations but the truth is one. But what happens when they don't want to know the truth? This thread happens.

Anyone want to have genuine reasonable discussion? PM.

Parkour like you've never seen before:
http://forum.toribash.com/showthread.php?t=423045

ynvaser

Jan 12, 2015

ynvaser

ub3r

Join Date: May 2009

Jan 12, 2015

Originally Posted by xlr84life

This thread should be closed already, all they do is insult insult insult and accuse without academic knowledge of these topics. They simple google what they want to find.

Let me show you an example of why your reaction to this topic is why this topic exists in the first place.

Insult: Islam sucks.
Criticism: Islam sucks, because...

We are doing the latter. We are bringing up examples of why Islam is a backwards religion with backwards followers in general (there are exceptions, I have Muslim friends who are okay for example). You come in here, try to close down a legitimate topic because the people posting in it doesn't agree with what you believe in, or what effects your belief has on the countries that follow it. We have a right to express our opinions just as much as you do. If you combine your behaviour with a cup of insanity, you get assholes like the terrorists in France. Learn to take criticism.

Last edited by ynvaser; Jan 12, 2015 at 03:18 PM.

Sniper

Jan 12, 2015

Sniper

Raconteur

Join Date: Apr 2011

Jan 12, 2015

Originally Posted by xlr84life

This thread should be closed already, all they do is insult insult insult and accuse without academic knowledge of these topics. They simple google what they want to find.

They can come up with a million different accusations but the truth is one. But what happens when they don't want to know the truth? This thread happens.

Anyone want to have genuine reasonable discussion? PM.

Actually, just calm bro, let they express what they think about islam, we will see the truth when the time has come.

u wot m8

Ele

Jan 13, 2015

Ele

Join Date: Sep 2009

Jan 13, 2015

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

Though I never said they were on equal footing, if you think it's honest to strawman so blatantly but dishonest to disagree then I think your moral compass is completely wack.

You said under Sharia, women only have "mild" and "average" restrictions on what they can do. You're the one with the wack moral compass, bro.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

The specific restriction you quote is more or less what any parent expects of their child. Are children being oppressed?

Are children under guardianship for life? Are you saying that because children are under guardianship until they're 18 that it's OK for Women under Sharia to be under guardianship for their lives? Spending their whole lives with those crippling restrictions on what they're able to do?

Alrighty mate - good argument.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

Ignoring that you randomly took that quote out of context, you are right, sharia is different to wahabism.

The quote, within context, was that Sharia was only in wahhabist countries, and 'besides, their complaints are mild'. There's your full context. I answered you by saying "Bullshit, you're lying - Sharia is in many countries with low numbers of wahhabists (i.e., most Mulsim-majority countires outside the Arabic Penninsula).

And so, your response to my response is, "You took my quote out of context, and Sharia is different to 'wahabism' [sic]". OK MATE.

Originally Posted by ImmortalPig

Islam was invented in 2000?!

Let's play '"I said, you said" again. I said most Islamic countries don't follow the UDHR. You said, "yes they do". I said, "No they don't, they follow the Cairo Declaration because it's in line with Sharia" and that the Cario Declaration had been criticised as reaffirming the gender inequalities inherent in Sharia. You're response ignored all that, and you tried to discredit my statement that they don't follow the UDHR by saying "Well they did once!".

"Well they did once!" is not a valid counter argument to "they don't follow the UDHR".

You obviously don't know or just don't care about the status of women under Sharia, despite me providing you with very clear, very noncontroversial evidence and points. You're refusing to change your position based on the available evidence because you're just so sure that you've always got the best answer. You've got some weird ideology where only you're right, and if anything actually happens to contradict what you think, then you skirt and deceive and do your best to grind the argument to a halt. It's not a healthy way of thinking, and it won't help you make any friends. I say this for your sake.

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