Rk-mma and Wushu with a dojo (wushu_2015.tbm) are very close from lenshu3ng tbh, different turn-frames, gravity and point distribution, but the metagame is pretty much the same. But yeah same issue, you can point hold like a mofo.

the "point system" is the same in every mod (except now wushu_2015, because the creator has changed how many points certain areas get). that being said, it's not random, once you begin to understand which parts are weak and strong you'll understand how to get points and why you lost points.

for example some inexperienced players will say points are random when they kick their shin into another players knee, not knowing that knees do not take damage. or when their wrist gets kicked and it does, as you said 10k damage, not knowing that wrists are pretty week and takes some of the most damage next to the head.


anyway, i'd have to say lenshu3ng is probably the most 'consistent' mod in terms of the better playing winning. it doesn't matter if you can run in the mod, because even when running you have to be pretty skilled at getting around in the gravity, and medium sized ring area. i'd say 9/10 the better player during the match wins: whoever makes the best decisions, whoever knows how to get more points, whoever knows how to move around accurately and efficiently in the area provided. it's a good mod, there's a reason it became my favorite after needing to learn it for the clan league. i don't know of many other mods as good as lenshu3ng in those respects. i don't believe any grab mod could be consistent either, because from the start there is already immediate pressure put on one of the weakest joints (the wrists). because of the way people grab each other with a clap most times (aikido mods), this goes for tk as well.

Disregarding and not reading anyone else's posts I answer ABD because of multiple factors and decent skill level required, plus it usually requires the player to have equal skill level to his opponent to beat him or close if you exclude shovels and other cheap maneuvers etc.

the only thing inconsistent with mods is the dismemberments and fractures so I guess any mod can be made consistent if dismember and fracture is disabled.

Myself being a TK player on high lvl I can say that TK Isn't a consistent mod. We jokingly call it fuckyou.tbm for the "random" wrist dms and insane point scoring. Aikido based mods are the most consistent (grey/abd most imho), bit more boring and easier than TK imho. But definitely consistent while allowing for reactive counterplay,

TK with much higher dm would be a clusterfuck

as someone, who probably would be one of the first to start playing toribash competitive, i would agree with most of the people and say taekkyon. but i also would agree with gynx.

yes, taekkyon is great, it has the fast reaction's things, its short (idk actually if thats bad or good) and its fast "paced" means u have to react to things quickly.
but it still is to a certain degree randomness in the game. sure u can relax stuff to lower the chance of getting DM'd, but u cant really see at which point it would break (except some obvious stuff) so im kinda sure that if i were the best player and would play against an average player, that i only end up winning like 8/10 because something unexpected happened that i could not control to that point.
if u look at the currently most competitive games, there is about to exactly no randomness involved (only thing that i get to my mind is Counter strike, where if u'r "lucky" a bullet can spray in such a way that u hit the enemy anyways, even if u did not aim for him, but the chance of the occurence is quite low that it pretty much bother's no one.)

i guess if its about a "perfect" competitive mod we either need some sort of tool that shows us EXACTLY when THIS joint is going to DM/Fracture, or simply play without those feature's which on the other hand would take away like half the game is made about. also a low TF is needed so you have the most possible control of your tori, while also being in need to plan things beforehand, the matches should not be too short (but could be, if DQ is enabled or such, like a fast rush) but also not be way too long, so that if u got set behind in the beginning u still have the chance of a comeback.

so the main thing, about competitive gaming is that u NEED the FULL CONTROL of whatever u are doing. which u cant assure in toribash to a certain point.
i didnt played lenshu in ages, so i cant say anything about that...

Any mod can be competitive as long as its playerbase is willing to compete ; and if the playerbase of a mod is willing to compete, rules of that mod are bound to change to "convert" it into something fairer, something that leaves less room to anti-sportsmanship behaviours or randomness.

Just like sports : football or boxing rules weren't the same 100 years ago, but they evolved as the people involved in those sports observed some flaws and thought about ways to get rid of those.

And what kind of rules & metagame would you suggest to make a mod "competitive from the get go" ? There's not much you can do which has not already been made after nearly 10 years of existence of Toribash. Players just need to roll their sleeves and work on something to better their favorite mod ; And devs need to give the community the feature they request to work that way


Also, I'm not sure lenshu3ng is as reliable as you say it is, it certainly needs its own dose of tweaks : you can still run & point hold, point system is confusing at best, most players just crab and flail their legs in front of them.

what is confusing about the point system that is the same point system in every mod?

running in lenshu3ng is difficult against a skilled player, i'd even go as far as to say that you actually have to be good at running to be able to run effectively against a good player. which part of the base of this discussion, what mod will the best player in that respective mod consistently be able to win in based on their skill. i'd argue that if someone ran from you and you couldn't catch them, that the runner was the better player in that match (don't hurt me avid wushu players). most players do and can crab and 'flail' there legs in front of them, but they wouldn't win against a better player in lenshu3ng.

also before someone retorts that running is easy, this mod isn't wushu, the gravity is higher, the area of play is smaller. against a good lenshu player it is difficult to run, a lenshu player that runs against a player to win and wins is the better player objectively. i don't want this to become about cheap moves, just winning and losing and being the better player in this mod means you will win the match. as i said before, if you win the match you are the better player in that match. that is why lenshu3ng is one of the most 'consistent' mods. because if you argue that you lost because he ran, then you should have been better at comebacks and chasing, if you argue that the points are random, you should learn the point system as a whole, because it is certainly not random (do not confuse not random for good, because i don't think it's very good). any excuse you make there is an answer for it in lenshu3ng.

it is viable to complain about running in wushu because the open play area, and low gravity. meaning that a player in wushu can gain points and run and not exactly be the better player. but i'm still not calling these moves cheap. the majority of competitive players have to get the thought of cheap moves out of there heads, especially those of us that played wushu in 2009 when it was the thing to play. shovels, running, lifting, once the competitive players as a whole accept these moves as viable and learn to counter them with any opener or play they have, they will no longer be 'cheap'.

Well points are a mess in every mod, I've always been saying it ! That's why I made those slight tweaks on wushu_2015, and I've been thinking about testing the same point distribution for other striking mods as well. I'm pretty sure they could benefit from it ; they share the same core after all ^^


I generally agree with the rest of your post, and what you said about lenshu3ng is true for any other striking mod imo [including wushu, with a dojo now], that doesn't mean there is no place for further improvement in those mods (including lenshu) and I'd write the same critics that I wrote about lenshu3ng in my previous post for any other striking mod as well.

Running is legit if the structure of the mod allows it. Playing a game for competition means there's nothing you can't do if the mod rules allow it, I agree. That's why there's room for improvement, and need for different winning goals, like the "first to X points" being discussed lately.

Also, I don't think running is harder or easier depending on the gravity if you take the dojo into account, it's different but I don't think there's a "difficulty leveling". When the gravity is harsh, it's harder to travel long distance ; when the gravity is light, it's harder to give the right amount of power not to get out of the dojo.

I can agree that lenshu3ng is insanely high up on the list for consistency of good players beating the worse player. Mwah and Gynx brought up excellent points, and I want to follow up on one Mwah in particular said:


Boy howdy is it ever. Because if you're moving to get away from the opponent, while dealing with the gravity, with the low enough turn frames to allow the chaser to change course, while staying inside the dojo, while avoiding DQ , it asks a lot of you to not also be vulnerable. A fast chaser usually catches a runner on the head, and that "bonk" means the runner will have less points and now is moving away from his opponent.