Running and point holding is [edit] a problem in any striking mod, it has nothing to do with turn frames.

Pls show me how you'd beat a good player with an opener in wushu, lets have a laugh.

Cowmeat you talk so much shit, why are you even commenting on competitive play when you have never taken part in such a thing?

TK is an awesome mod but don't even pretend its played competitive, all TK is, is experienced players farming off noobs. OMG SO COMPETITIVE

" have to say that no long turnframe mod can be played competitively atm." - cowmeat
That is the dumbest shit I have heard, just look at all the mods people duel in, Lenshu3ng, ABD, RK-mma, Boxshu_mushu.

bla bla bla wushu isn't "competitive" I don't know why people are pretending it is.

Actually people aren't, we're only a few to defend wushu as being competitive. Most people are scrubs at wushu and think they're pro, and they rage when they get rekt by worst players 'cause they can't wushu for shiet and think it's not "competitive".

"I believe abd is the best mod for competitive play atm." I would argue that is true.

But to say that decent players cannot pointhold and tripod isnt true. I dont know what you consider to be decent but i guess my standards are different. What I mean that ofc the better player will win if you play to 10 wins. But the difference wont be that massive. If you put a good vs decent player in abd or lets say in tk. I would say that difference is bigger in tk. I am at no point saying abd is a bad mod for competitive but its not the best possible is what im getting at.

By mistakes not being punished I mean that i can do a small mistake or two in abd. Because of the nature of the mod I wont necessarily lose as easily as in many other mods.

Running is easy to counter in a mod with a ring.
Point holding is easy to counter in mods with short turn frames.

Rings/Dojos only limit running, as people can't run in a straight line anymore, they have to stop/change direction/push again, they lose more time which makes it easier to catch up etc... but it doesn't remove running from striking mods. To remove running we need a different meta-goal/winning condition, and I'm pretty sure we'll have it at some point.


You'll have explain the logic behind that statement because I do not see it. Point holding is pretty much the same thing as running, since you have to avoid the fight to point hold, if anything it's influenced by the dojo/ring, not the turn frames.
And mods with longer turn frames generally have a longer total match frame, so actually more time to catch up with the point-holding player, if you have enough control to move fast with longer tf.


Also, wushu has a dojo now.

Running doesn't make a mod any less consistent or competitive, just to note in general. If you're a good player you'll catch any runner, it doesn't shouldn't matter if they go left, right or straight.

Furthermore, in order to either create or state undoubted competitive/consistent mods. We'd have to create a solid basis on what makes a mod consistent or competitive (if anyone is really that interested). Since a list of that stuff doesn't exist, and a perfect competitive mod doesn't exist. All we can really do is pitch our opinions, none of us being able to really come to an agreement because of the certain flaws some mods have. Another note: I can see where the creator of the new wushu mod was going with it in order to make it competitive, but I still think that mod has some shortcomings and flaws. I also think theres definitely a way to make a mod competitive (eliminate all flaws) without an alternate winning condition.

look,
any grab mod will be well competative as soon as we will get breakable grabs.
any striking mod will be well competative as soon as we will get health bar

for grab variation of mods that can be competative and favor the one who is more skilled you can have:

aikido7 (aikido with limited grab)
sw4 (spiritwrestling with limited grab)

these were my best attempts in creating something general but favoring understanding of movement over noob-proof lame crap.

I agree that it doesn't make a mod less competitive as people can still play for the win, but it shifts the point of the mod(s) toward something different that most people don't want to be a part of, because it doesn't feel fair nor "in agreement" with the purpose of the game/mod.

When people compete into a fighting game, they expect to fight, not a cop & robber chase game.

Also, I wasn't saying directions of the run matter, but in a mod without a dojo you can start running in a direction at turn X, keep pushing in that same direction at turn X+1, push again in same direction at turn X+2 , same at X+3, same at X+4 etc... Whereas a ring makes it so at Turn X+2 or X+3 you have to stop your momentum and manoeuvre to change the path of your course, which gives time for your opponent to catch up.

The point isn't that a good player can catch any average runner, it's that when 2 good players would run behind each other forever if there were no limitation in space.



I agree, the only thing that makes a mod competitive is if players are willing to compete in it, there's no other factor, it's only a matter of tastes and subjective opinions. And what makes people want to compete generally is how fair & rewarding the mod can be.

I think the real point of the discussion, as you said, is to point the flaws of the mods that are already being played by the community (aikido, abd, lenshung, wushu, tk, rk-mma and whatever else I'm missing) to push players to work and remove those flaws from their mods.
Every mod has its own part of "unfairness" and aspects that call for "unsportsmanship", and that's what has to be removed, I'll take a concrete exemple other than wushu to make my point :

A few days ago I played some abd with Diamond, I got my ass handed to me (litteraly) but the way he won felt cheap and dirty 70% of the time because of the flaws of the mod. Then we played another mod he made (very close from aikido7 & sw4), which basically was a version of abd with only grabbable arms, no fracs/dms and a few other changes. I got my ass handed to me again, but even tho I was being rekt it didn't feel unfair like it did with abd : wins were clean and the difference in skill & experience was clear, no weird stuff. I was actually enjoying getting pwnd and learned some stuff, which wasn't the case in abd.



As I'm aware there still are flaws and some stuff to improve, I really think we can't have a totally fair striking mod with time-based wins, as long as there's a possibility to point hold and play the cop & robber chase game, people will do it when the stakes are high.
Wins based on time and points advantage is the biggest flaws of all striking mods.

I want to air out my thoughts a little more because I see a trend where what I'm talking about gets misconstrued.

Toribash can be luck based. Not just because of it's core design, but by the design of the mods that people enjoy playing. While there is clear logic behind what happens, it doesn't mean there aren't mods where there is a great deal of "rock paper scissor" situations where you're not wrong for choosing any particular option, but you will win or lose based off what you both choose.

When I talk about consistency in a mod, I'm not talking about whether or not the mod is fun. I'm not talking about whether or not the mod is operating as intended when you look at the optimal strategy vs. how the mod was designed and what concept was had in mind. I'm talking specifically about whether or not you can guarantee the better player will win. Or rather: how much can you guarantee the better player win.

I'm going to spitball legends names that may or may not be relevant anymore, pretend they are the actual best players of their mods, so suspend your disbelief for a second.

If Imsku was in a public room filled with novice to intermediate, and Imsku was the best TK player in Toribash, what would his win rate be in that room. 50%? 70%? 90%?

If KamiKo was in a public room filled with novice to intermediate players, and KamiKo was the best wushu player in Toribash, what would his win rate in a wushu room be?

If Nuthug was in a public room filled with novice to intermediate players, and was the best aikido player in Toribash, what would his win rate be in aikido?

If Hamster was in a public room filled with novice to intermediate players, and he was the best judo player in Toribahs, what would his win rate in judo be?

So on and so forth.

Ideally, you'd hope the better player (outside of human fatigue, straight misplays done by the player, etc), could get as close to a 100% win ratio. Because if he's outplaying his opponent, and his opponent is clearly worse than him, bar mistakes in any particular game you'd want him to always win. That way as you got better and better in that mod, you can guarantee higher and higher win rates in that mod. What one might come to find out on the other hand is while there might clearly be a best judo player, he may or may not be able to secure wins as often as say the best aikido player.