mp is objectively harder.

there is no debate, really.

surprisingly, but mp is not only about fighting your opponent.

3-5 years ago, when sparring and freerunning weren't an infinite reaction time circlejerk as it is now, we were doing wallruns and flips and so on with normal reaction time. with one try, without being able to edit our replay.

the only difference between sp and mp is time and one try

please, no more bs about creativity and such as it's incorrect in it's very core.

if you can do wallrun reliably in sp - good.
if you can do wallrun reliably in mp with normal reaction time - you are unquestionably better.


no need to be salty.
you can make the smoothest transitions and movements in sp with an ability to edit your replay and no time limit,
but don't fool yourself watching mp replay of other people, executing same things but in less graceful way, thinking that you are "better and more skillfull",
as the one who submited replay made it with normal reaction time and one try. while you spent whole evening.

just to get a fucking "not realistic enough, needs more fluidity" reply from such "pro's".

pusga makes a very good point here:


You guys seem to think that the edit button makes everything free. If multiple edits makes replaymaking easy, then why isn't everyone as good as Largekilla?

Most people don't know when they've made a mistake, and if they do, its often the case that they don't have the knowledge of a tori to fix it.

Another thing: you guys seem to think that replaymakers spend multiple days and countless hours on a single replay, which is only true for some replaymakers. A lot of us have different processes. When I make a replay, its usually done in one sitting. In the first 10 minutes of this stream, I make an opener that I'm very proud of in about 4 edits. I've made multiple replays for fun using no edits (NutHug gave me the idea for this, he's done it before too). They were not bad.


Where do you get the idea that replaymakers are awful at multiplayer?

I'll use clan league as an example. [T] is known for being a replaymaker clan. All of our active members are replaymakers primarily. Here's the results from both clan leagues we've entered.





I'll admit that we're not doing phenomenal in 2015, but the fact that we're even still in shows that SP players are just good at the game in general.

Snake: gracefulness is the point of singleplayer. Most of the time, for me at least, the actual objective contents of a replay (4dm boomhit, skeetshot, toespin, wallrun, etc.) are not that important. What is important is how smooth and graceful those things are. Being pleasing to the eye is the point, and its the part that takes skill. Anyone can run, but not many can make it their own.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to say that SP takes more skill than MP. I really don't think they're comparable in that way. But if you're going to take shots at what I do I need to defend myself :<

you can be graceful in mp aswell, but it will obviously take more skill than being same graceful in sp.

this is kinda obvious, isn't it?

we also make replays in mp, we just have to think quick, only one try and we can't edit them.
this is the ONLY difference.

except that you don't have control over everything in multiplayer and so the possibilities are significantly less than in singleplayer.

plus I could make the argument that the game doesn't reward you for doing three backflips in aikido, because it's not necessarily what the game wants you to do. in singleplayer it doesn't reward you for doing it either, but singleplayer has no reward whatsoever so it is difficult to assume what the "rules" are and safe to say that you can make your own rules (and therefore your own game).

of course, in multiplayer, doing stuff that looks nice means you have good knowledge of the tori, but it doesn't make you good at the game. I'm not treating the game like esports, I'm treating it like what it is. I could go play call of duty online and become the greatest and killing myself spectacularly with grenades (I would do amazing trickshots with grenades and kill myself in UNIMAGINABLE ways). It would require insane knowledge of the game, but it doesn't make me good at the game, it makes me good at killing myself with grenades in spectacular ways. I am free to do it, but I simply can't say mp takes more skill because it lets me do something that is insanely hard to do but that is completely pointless towards the objective goals of the game.

you can't say that mp requires skill because of stuff you can do. you can say mp requires skill for stuff that it actually requires you to do in order to succeed. in order to have success in multiplayer, by the game's standards, you are required to win, even if you disagree with said game's standards. we are discussing skill on Toribash, not on the imaginary goals and games people create in their minds. This is why I refuse to compare the skill level required in mp to the one required in sp, because it's completely different criteria and situational.



I can't say the same for singleplayer because the game presents you no goals whatsoever, so in order for me to even be able to do anything in singleplayer I need to create goals.

single player you are given an infinite amount of time to create a replay. given an finite amount of time nothing is impressive. multiplayer you are given 20 seconds to perform the actions you want.you also need to worry about the opponents actions, how they may effect your own and how to deal with them, all within the time limit. the act of overcoming this limitation to perform the outcome you want is what makes it more skillfull.

multiplayer has more limitations to overcome to achieve the result you want, therefore it is more skillfull.

So basically, Oblivion's selfspar, tricking, Jaker's bboying, Nuthug's headpasses, and all those legendary replays are nothing impressive?

Idk it sounds like excuse

to me , no.

how much more impressive would it have been if they accomplished that with the limitations multiplayer brings?

you are talking about mp in fight focused context, but mp is not ONLY about fights, which you like to ignore for 2nd or 3rd time, and make a stand like sp is something absolutely different, which it is not.

mp is not ONLY about fight. this is the statement. no need to bring fight situations now. it's irrelevant. you did this twice already and we are not talking about it. no need to try to bring it up again.

if you want a crystal clear example or what we are talking about - here, again:

mp spar / parkour
vs
sp spar / parkour

i will replhrase my previous statement into a very simple question:

we take two parkour replays, which are absolutely identical,
the only difference is that one is made in sp, another in mp with normal reaction time.

question is rhetorical, here it is:
is the player who created this awesome replay in mp within limited time to make a move, one try and with no ability to change anything objectively better that the one who spent a day making (absolutely identical by chance) replay being able to rewind it and edit it any time he wants?

this is what we are talking in a nutshell.

to sum it up, again, objectively:
the only difference between mp and sp is that in mp you are limited by time and one try.
in sp you are not.

no need to bring fight, strategies and other bs in, you will be talking out of context again.
you did it already several times, no need to repeat yourself on something we are NOT talking about.

do you really think mp sparring and parkour compare to sp sparring and parkour in quality?

can you expand on these points? what exactly is being redefined by sp players, how are the limits being pushed?

to me, modern replays aren't too distinct from replays in 2008. they've just got generally better in quality.