Originally Posted by sir

Ok so this is how this thread looks: Hax wanted to get a mod list for matchmaking system, snake rushed in and started suggesting his own mods (because everything made by him is obviously better), everyone ended up arguing if greykido is similar to abd.


I seriously don't know why none of you suggested a variation of valetudo as aikido/greykido replacement if you all complain about shovels there. Either use one of them or slightly modify greykido's engagedistance. Don't make your own completely new mods with some weird settings that make fights messed up (like erthtkv2 does with its random dms thanks to selfdamage that always resulted in that) - because they are only fun for you.

Even though I agree that regular wushu running / aikido shoveling are a problem when speaking of "competitive" play, all the other mods you have here can be abused aswell.
In rkmma you get low and lie on the ground up to the moment when your opponent reaches you - then you kick the shit out of him and he flies away. Lenshu3ng is abused the same way lenshu3 was - you kick in the first frames and then lie on the ground, sometimes kicking the opponent when he reaches you. Erthtk is a mess, I'm not even going to speak about it - even Erth says it's bad which should mean something to you. Aikidobd is one of the most popular mods - yet if you find someone who can lift as good as Leyz did he'll wreck anyone with any fighting style. Never played that snake's variation of spiritwresling (most probably because it's bad as it has 3.5k games played since 2012 - AND because swfixed was created later and got noticeably more popular) but swfixed looked like the only mod that is more or less "competitive" as you define it - but that's probably because nobody plays spiritwresling. Seriously, the original mod and all its modifications have only ~160k games played combined.


If you want to get a system that players would want to use - please come up with good mods people play and suggest easy ways to fix them if needed rather than creating your crazy-ass fl0w-approved mods that only snake will play.


Also why no judofrac in the list - or some fl0w_esport_judo variation?


EDIT:
Also this is hilarious. A mod designed to be played as "wait until your opponent makes a mistake" is now considered to be agressive.

Now, how is a mod supposed to get exposure under these conditions? Your argument that people don't play these mods might be a result of this. Also, mods evolve partly as a result of new techniques , but the staff and community seem completely set on repressing that. To prove my point, you suggested a mod I've never seen in any server as an opposition to new mods being created. You also seem to have a personal issue with snake even though he is one of the largest innovators of the game. (you might not like what he does but that's a different issue)
You also seem to condemn most popular mods. So I'm curious: which mods are you in favour of?

"please come up with good mods"

Lenshu, RK, TK, ErthTK, Aikido, Greykido, ABD, JudoFrac, SW.

Originally Posted by sir

EDIT:

They're used widely (except for spiritwrestling) now, so what's the purpose of this thread then? If it was to prove that the current choice of mods is fine - why is this discussion a thing?

Originally Posted by sir

My argument is that forcing people to play new complicated mods they've never heard of in ranked fights would be horrible. First make a mod and get it popular, then suggest it being used in ranked rooms / matchmaking.
valetudo is a mod that isn't really played now but older aikido players heard of it (I'm pretty sure at least snake did). Anyway, the thing isn't that I suggested valetudo to be used instead of aikido but that the simplest way to fix shoveling issue is to make engagedistance higher. Yes the gameplay won't be the same but at least you won't have to explain a regular player all the settings with a wall of text / charts / images.
No issues with snake (even now when he doesn't bother to read my post and pretty much breaks discussion rules but whatever), it's apparently him who thinks me and hampa are the same person and thus behaves weird. He's got some good suggestions sometimes but he can't stand any criticism and that's usually the reason why he isn't taken seriously.
As for condemning most popular mods - I don't think I do that. Yes I think that erthtkv2 is bad and I proved why earlier, that's probably the only currently popular mod that I dislike and don't understand why it's even being suggested as a competitive substitution for taekkyon. Other mods are more or less fine from my opinion but it weirds me that the group of people "trying to make toribash competitive" take some of them out and suggest replacements that either make you cry because of how boring they are to play or suggest substitutions that have the same exact problems.
Also quick note: if a mod makes you play the only way modmaker wanted it to be played, it doesn't mean it's good.


EDIT:

They're used widely (except for spiritwrestling) now, so what's the purpose of this thread then? If it was to prove that the current choice of mods is fine - why is this discussion a thing?

Originally Posted by FistofLife

No idea why the thread was made, it is pretty obvious that these are the mods people want (as they are the ones played).

I think I do understand what you're saying, though. There are really three groups of people in toribash. The beginners, the casuals, and the elitists. Because these groups are so different in preference, it might be necessary to have three categories for them. Let me show you what I mean:

As for my suit of Striking mods, we'll see in a month or two when people will have heard about them more.

Originally Posted by SmallBowl

having played the mod I think it takes too long for people to stay interested

Originally Posted by SmallBowl

also the point system, although undoubtedly thoroughly worked out ends up weird.

Originally Posted by SmallBowl

so weird in fact the person who won was pretty much a coin toss, I went pretty much 50/50, despite the fact that the people I was playing with were considerably better than me at striking and striking mods in general.

Originally Posted by deprav

I don't think that's an issue. You can't make competitive mods and feel concerned about what players in public queues think. The longer a striking mod is, the more time players have to take a clear advantage and show a real domination on their opponent ; classic mods are too short and lack a feeling of accomplishment when you finish a fight. It's frustrating as hell.

That's why, ideally, the meta/goals of those mods should focus almost only on points (and DQ), and time shouldn't be a concern ; which is what we're trying to do with the Grand Opening tournament's format and win conditions.
If someone joins a competition or play on competitive lobby in order to win, you don't have to worry about keeping the queue "interested", the competition and trying to win and achieve something rewarding, and the material reward for doing so, is what primarily interest people. As for competitive lobbies, we've been told the amount of rooms isn't a concern anymore.

Weird how ? I'd like concrete exemples or replays so I can see what people think is/was weird and either explain what happened or fix it if something is indeed weird.

Tho yes, it's different. The damage threshold + redistribution makes it way easier to defend your scoring parts, and way harder to score decent hits. It rebalances the whole meta of the striking mods. It's easier to defend, but it's WAY HARDER to play defensively AND score points when you camp because you mostly end up having poor positions to attack your opponent's scoring parts, and it's way easier for him to take the fight to you in a safe engaging-position and put his limbs inbetween a shitty readable position and his scoring parts.

Well, first those players weren't probably as good as you/they think they are. And second, the mods are pretty recent. Only a few players started assimilating the changes and adapted to them properly yet. It's kind of a fresh start, people have new things to learn to be able to play them in an optimal way.
Most players still play like they're playing the classic mods -since that's how they learned- and despite the fact you can still use the "classic style" effectively if done properly, it's been nerfed pretty hard.

On all the matchs I have seen during the tourneys I hosted with those mods, even if the winner wasn't the better player or the one you expected, it always was the one who fought they best fight, and took the best decisions.

Also, I've said it a few times but best remind people : those mods aren't finalized yet, and won't be finalized as long as we can't apply the "damage to score threshold" to the "point trigger" system, in order to completely eliminate all remaining traces of rubbing damages and eventual random points outcome when clinching.
They also need to totally get rid of the "time" aspect and have a win condition of their own (win by reaching a pre-defined amount of points, aka "lifebar") in order to put the emphasis on the fight rather than keeping a point advantage and play the time (which is already harder with long matchframes).
But in the meantime [b]they're still more consistent and interesting to play than the classic mods.[.b]

Those mods also serve a long term goal, which is having an eye-candy & public-friendly competitive scene. Grappling mods and kicking/hybrid mods are cool to play, but they're a boring mess to watch for the untrained eyes of a beginner. Like tk for instance, you understand what happens if you watch a match in direct-live and know what the mod is about, but the subtilities won't ever show on a replay, you just see 2 people rapidly flailing at each other and losing parts. Same for aikido mods, you can't completely appreciate the subtilities and the dynamic of the fight as a spectator.
With Striking mods it's a whole other story, high level fights are impressive, the longer turnframes make the movements clear and comprehensible by any audience, you see the dynamic, the hits, the dodges, the blocks, it looks neat as fuck, and if Toribash ever wants an appealing "e-sport" aspect, that's where the fuck it's at. It's hard, fun, challenging, consistent, and sweet to watch.