Originally Posted by SmallBowl
I disagree, classic mods imo are about the right length, considering in a competitive system matches / duels are typically first to 3, having around 5 minute games, which is typical in classic mods gives a range of time from 15 minutes to 25 minutes, this is long enough and is about the amount of time that it should be, on the other hand the mods seen above can take 20 minutes per match, as they did when I was fighting Icky and Scorpio. This gives a total time of 1 hour - 1 hour 40 which is too long for the competitive scene.
But you're missing an important point : we're not going for "first to 3" or "first to 5" win condition, we're aiming to change the win condition for competitive striking mods to focus it on reaching a predefined amount of points rather than conserving a point advantage. And even if it's not possible with the tools we have right now, we're starting to shape the meta & rules around that idea.
Also, those mods can't take up to 20mins : (20 seconds*40 turns)/60= 13mins at max. But without the "first to X rounds" win condition, if you play it well it could actually take you less than 13 mins to reach the amount of points needed.
And even with a first to 3 system it would take approximatively 30mins.
But yes, the purpose of the 40 turns is to suit our own competition format and win conditions, 20 turns is more reasonnable when it comes to classic format "first to X rounds".
Playing a game should never feel boring or like work, whats the point in that?
Yes of course, but how are those mods boring ? Those mods deliver the most intense matchs I've played in a long time. The matchs are longer than usual ones but you don't have time to get bored, you constantly need to react and adapt to your opponent, it's a fight.
shown below is a replay of me fighting Icky, there is another that I can upload but the end of the replay is glitched, throughout the replay, it is more clear if watched slowly, Icky is far more fluid and he strikes aiming for areas of my body, while I flail my limbs nearly disqualifying myself 3 times, despite this I win with a narrow point victory, while many of my hits miss completely.
2 times of note are around frame 800 where there is just an RNG pileup and I somehow come out on top from a point deficit and around frame 450, where if watched slowly I clearly was kicked in the head with a decent force yielding 0 points, which was odd. Icky was the better player, and lost.
I don't think we're watching the same replay ;p
Most of Icky's "hits" in this replays are pushes, he triggers his hits way too late which results in poor strenght at impact moment (you see the thresholds bar above the scores indicating the power of the hit). It's what happen on that kick around frame 400 you talked about.
He comes in in sloppy ways, with parts of his body super exposed, there's a part of the fight where his head ends up inbetween your thighs for quite some time, and his defense is pretty bad, he puts all he has on the attack. This is an exact exemple of what I was saying in my previous post : the way he hits (starting at very close distance resulting in push rather than hit) is a symptom of the classic mods, same for the "clinch" part, he tries to "scissor/pinch" you, but those are not HITS, and therefore score shit or no points. He plays the "classic style", as you can see it works as he does score some points and move around, but it's not as OP as it was before, the skillcap has been raised and players must adapt.
On the other hand, YOU actually played the HITS. You get 2 pretty nice head hits and one almost-crotch in. You sure made mistakes (like giving him 10 points by launching your head on his fist xD), but you're overhaul less sloppy than Icky on that replay, even if you end up with your face in dangerous position 2 or 3 times, his hits are too weak to be any dangerous at this distance. Icky was NOT the better player, you guys both made big mistakes, but you clearly got the best hits.
As for the clinch situation without random-ish outcomes, it's not particular to my set of mods, it's actually less random and punishing on my mods. With the classic point system you would end up with hundred of thousands of points, with one player having +50K points than the other for no particular reason, which is pretty much impossible to catch up.
Thresholds and point distribution lower the "rubbing damages" causing randomness during clinch situation, even if it doesn't suppress it completely there's no huge insurmontable point difference after a clinch.
The only way to totally get rid of those random points during a clinch is, once again, "Damage threshold" + "Point trigger", which can't be used together yet.
In the consistency point, I found the opposite, as I said earlier my win rate was exactly 50/50 over 6 games, taking a total of just over 2 hours. Despite the fact that I am worse at striking than scorpio and Icky, 50% is exactly the least consistent it is possible to be.
That's what I explain above and in my previous post. Icky and Scorpio probably are good in classic mods, Icky shows a pretty classic demonstration in that replay. But they're average in my striking mods, they didn't go past what they already knew from their "classic knowledge", which is why you guys had 50/50 win rate, the classic playstyle is nerfed, and you're totally decent at striking from what I saw in that replay. Have some self-confidence !
when competitive Dota or league is watched noobs dont understand whats going on exactly, with the steep learning curves and all the characters and items in the game. Does that make it uncompetitive or less good to watch? Not according to viewing figures and prize money when compared with other games.
My point isn't that all competitive games must be nice to watch, my point is that Toribash has this particularity and should strongly use it. You create movement, you play to win and it results in a unique animation, and matchs NEVER look alike. It's a unique game creating very graphical and unique replays, I don't understand why you wouldn't promote that aspect of the game when it's obviously its core idea.
EDIT :
it was new for the first 500 frames of the first match but afterwards it became tedious and a chore to play.
You can't sound the depth of a competitive mod with just 500 frames tho. If it became tedious after a short while it's probably because you guys tried to play the same old classic way, and it probably felt disappointing to see the poor results it gives.
Last edited by deprav; Aug 24, 2015 at 08:28 PM.
Originally Posted by deprav
But you're missing an important point : we're not going for "first to 3" or "first to 5" win condition, we're aiming to change the win condition for competitive striking mods to focus it on reaching a predefined amount of points rather than conserving a point advantage. And even if it's not possible with the tools we have right now, we're starting to shape the meta & rules around that idea.
Also, those mods can't take up to 20mins : (20 seconds*40 turns)/60= 13mins at max. But without the "first to X rounds" win condition, if you play it well it could actually take you less than 13 mins to reach the amount of points needed.
And even with a first to 3 system it would take approximatively 30mins.
this is not quite accurate, the game from the replay shown DID take 20 minutes.
Although yes the only turn time is 13 minutes 20 as you said, how many times have you pressed space and had it instantly go to your next turn with no wait or lag at all?
Me and Icky are across the world and both have particularly bad internet :P, especially him. Also there is the time where the replay actually plays and the playing time between turns, it all adds up.
30minutes is a huge underexageration too, that means not only were the games 3 minutes shorter than maximum, but the match finished 3-0, which in a similarly skilled matchup is not likely.
But yes, the purpose of the 40 turns is to suit our own competition format and win conditions, 20 turns is more reasonnable when it comes to classic format "first to X rounds".
Yes of course, but how are those mods boring ? Those mods deliver the most intense matchs I've played in a long time. The matchs are longer than usual ones but you don't have time to get bored, you constantly need to react and adapt to your opponent, it's a fight.
Intense and boring are all subjective, in the same way that you like wushu and striking and I dont you like this and I dont, talking subjectively not objectively wont get us anywhere D:, dont say I was the first to talk subjectively becauseshutup
I don't think we're watching the same replay ;p
Most of Icky's "hits" in this replays are pushes, he triggers his hits way too late which results in poor strenght at impact moment (you see the thresholds bar above the scores indicating the power of the hit). It's what happen on that kick around frame 400 you talked about.
He comes in in sloppy ways, with parts of his body super exposed, there's a part of the fight where his head ends up inbetween your thighs for quite some time, and his defense is pretty bad, he puts all he has on the attack. This is an exact exemple of what I was saying in my previous post : the way he hits (starting at very close distance resulting in push rather than hit) is a symptom of the classic mods, same for the "clinch" part, he tries to "scissor/pinch" you, but those are not HITS, and therefore score shit or no points. He plays the "classic style", as you can see it works as he does score some points and move around, but it's not as OP as it was before, the skillcap has been raised and players must adapt.
On the other hand, YOU actually played the HITS. You get 2 pretty nice head hits and one almost-crotch in. You sure made mistakes (like giving him 10 points by launching your head on his fist xD), but you're overhaul less sloppy than Icky on that replay, even if you end up with your face in dangerous position 2 or 3 times, his hits are too weak to be any dangerous at this distance. Icky was NOT the better player, you guys both made big mistakes, but you clearly got the best hits.
asfdrfg youre missing the point, I didnt know what I was pressing or have any reason for pressing it except for it looked spinny, icky had a plan sortofish
As for the clinch situation without random-ish outcomes, it's not particular to my set of mods, it's actually less random and punishing on my mods. With the classic point system you would end up with hundred of thousands of points, with one player having +50K points than the other for no particular reason, which is pretty much impossible to catch up.
Thresholds and point distribution lower the "rubbing damages" causing randomness during clinch situation, even if it doesn't suppress it completely there's no huge insurmontable point difference after a clinch.
a 30 point jump comparitively is as much or more imo than 50k in normal lenshu, 1 big head hit can get you that much but to be fair I cant unto lenshu
The only way to totally get rid of those random points during a clinch is, once again, "Damage threshold" + "Point trigger", which can't be used together yet.
That's what I explain above and in my previous post. Icky and Scorpio probably are good in classic mods, Icky shows a pretty classic demonstration in that replay. But they're average in my striking mods, they didn't go past what they already knew from their "classic knowledge", which is why you guys had 50/50 win rate, the classic playstyle is nerfed, and you're totally decent at striking from what I saw in that replay. Have some self-confidence !
My point isn't that all competitive games must be nice to watch, my point is that Toribash has this particularity and should strongly use it. You create movement, you play to win and it results in a unique animation, and matchs NEVER look alike. It's a unique game creating very graphical and unique replays, I don't understand why you wouldn't promote that aspect of the game when it's obviously its core idea.
It is true that this mod does give nice replays, shame both my nice ones are glitched as shown below: I didnt dq and uke = Scorp
EDIT :
You can't sound the depth of a competitive mod with just 500 frames tho. If it became tedious after a short while it's probably because you guys tried to play the same old classic way, and it probably felt disappointing to see the poor results it gives.
I dont even know what calssic style is how can I have tried to do it D
Don't dm me pictures of bowls that you find attractive.
As a player that has played over 2500-3000 games of lenshu3ng.tbm (600ish games of judo, and the rest in greykido +a few hundred games in random mods) out of just under 4500 total games played, I can confirm that the mods courtesy of Striking Reborn are much more well fit for the competitive scene.
The problem with the classic mods is that they teach you to attack wildly and forgo aim for speed and power, so that any hit rewards you fairly well. That only happens because arms and legs give so many points. It doesn't really matter whether you hit the lumbar or the tricep with that kick you have wound up, because either way you'll get 15k+ points. Another huge issue I have with legs and arms receiving any damage at all is that most hits that connect with arms or legs are going to be essentially random, bullshit hits. It's not like one is actually aiming for a limb - they're nearly impossible to aim for. The limbs are what completely carry the rest of your tori through the fight, be that by moving you across the dojo, by blocking or by striking. They simply move too much to be accurately aimed for with current turnframes. Say one were to hit their opponent in the wrist and get, say, 60,000 points (Example Attached). That's a huge setback that was completely unintentional! How is that well balanced and suited for competition?
The problem with the classic mods is that they teach you to attack wildly and forgo aim for speed and power, so that any hit rewards you fairly well. That only happens because arms and legs give so many points. It doesn't really matter whether you hit the lumbar or the tricep with that kick you have wound up, because either way you'll get 15k+ points. Another huge issue I have with legs and arms receiving any damage at all is that most hits that connect with arms or legs are going to be essentially random, bullshit hits. It's not like one is actually aiming for a limb - they're nearly impossible to aim for. The limbs are what completely carry the rest of your tori through the fight, be that by moving you across the dojo, by blocking or by striking. They simply move too much to be accurately aimed for with current turnframes. Say one were to hit their opponent in the wrist and get, say, 60,000 points (Example Attached). That's a huge setback that was completely unintentional! How is that well balanced and suited for competition?
Last edited by pouffy; Aug 25, 2015 at 12:31 AM.
Originally Posted by SmallBowl
this is not quite accurate, the game from the replay shown DID take 20 minutes.
Although yes the only turn time is 13 minutes 20 as you said, how many times have you pressed space and had it instantly go to your next turn with no wait or lag at all?
Me and Icky are across the world and both have particularly bad internet :P, especially him. Also there is the time where the replay actually plays and the playing time between turns, it all adds up.
30minutes is a huge underexageration too, that means not only were the games 3 minutes shorter than maximum, but the match finished 3-0, which in a similarly skilled matchup is not likely.
My bad I meant ~30min for best of 3, not first to 3 (which would be best of 5.)
As for the rest, it's not really a mod architecture issue but more of a connectivity related problem ^^ I rarely play against people who lag so much that the amount of time required to play an entire fight is almost doubled, it never happened to me tbh. I don't think that's something you can hold agains the mods themselves.
And I'd like to remind I do agree that for a "best of 5" situation, 20 turns fights probably are the best choice ! But 40 turns is a good soft transition toward the "first to X points" win condition we're going for.
Intense and boring are all subjective, in the same way that you like wushu and striking and I dont you like this and I dont, talking subjectively not objectively wont get us anywhere D:, dont say I was the first to talk subjectively becauseshutup
hehe, I won't say it ;o
Tho, there will always be a part of subjectivity when trying to answer the question of "what's more competitive", since people tend to compete into what they prefer. Hence why sir speaks about popularity of a mod : a mod can be popular but totally not suitable for competition, but a (hypothetical) mod that could be objectively the most "competition-ready" could also be unpopular and not worth being put on the official list. People's personnal opinions do matter to a certain extent, it's all about middle-grounds !
asfdrfg youre missing the point, I didnt know what I was pressing or have any reason for pressing it except for it looked spinny, icky had a plan sortofish
I'm not missing the point, you're missing the point ! xD
From my point of view, your exemple only proves that classic striking mods (lenshu3ng, rk-mma, wushu) always had good potential but their "architecture" set the skillcap pretty low (considering their potential). When you start to ask the players to actually aim and create a decent amount of power they start having troubles, just like Icky on that replay.
Saying you didn't know what you were pressing is a pretty bold statement ! We can all see your moves are rather smooth even if sometimes clumsy. Spinny is good, spinny is movement, it's building momentum to create decent hits, and moving is being hardly predictable for your opponent; it's creating openings and surprises ;o
The only plan I can see from Icky's performance is that he's trying to put his legs inbetween you and him and land poor "extending knee" kicks wherever his position allow him to aim. What you'd mostly call "crabbing", the "classic playstyle" for most striking mods because it was easy to apply and very effective with the old point system.
a 30 point jump comparitively is as much or more imo than 50k in normal lenshu, 1 big head hit can get you that much but to be fair I cant unto lenshu
a 30 point jump in my mods would sure be a lot, but I yet have to witness a 30 points difference after a clinch. On your replay the "clinch" ends up with a ~3 points difference for you, which is reasonnable. The only clinches ending with a huge point difference I've seen is when someone gets his head grabbed by the other player with both arms, which makes sense. Don't get your head crushed xD
As for 50k in normal lenshu, it's pretty much impossible to catch up if you don't clinch again for a crazy amount of random points. If the other guy "crabs" and camp, as soon as you come in he can hit whatever parts of your body is in range and score 30K+ for a limb hit, which means he can keep his point advantage very easily, he'll generally score approximatively as many points as you can score and the point gap will stay the same. In my striking mods you can close the gap by using your limbs to block and take a minimum amount of points and then have an occasion to land a good hit to catch up with the points. hence the "easier to defend, harder to play defensively"
I dont even know what calssic style is how can I have tried to do it D
I'll try to find a replay for a good "classic style" exemple. Basically it's what I describe earlier (crabbing) : you use your wrists+elbows to move around or be ready to push, and keep your legs inbetween you and your opponent, and pretty much only use your knee joints to kick whatever you can. It was OP as frack in classic mods.
Anyway, I hope that discussion has taught you a bit more about the changes my mods aim to bring and that you'll try to look at them with new eyes ! If I catch you on IRC I propose to have a few fights so I could show you concretely what I tried to explain here ^^
Last edited by deprav; Aug 25, 2015 at 02:47 AM.
Originally Posted by NutHug
The striking mod seems pretty nice but fractures seem to contradict the whole thing.
From what I see it's 30tf 1200mf though. That's 40 turns. I think normal mods have about 12 turns, I can see me lose interest even as a player. Allowing for comebacks and extending the fight is nice but you shouldn't make it longer than a brushu match. 20-25 turns should be more than enough. You don't have to pet players and allow them to comeback from everything. Even if there's no queue in matchmaking it will probably be promoted to clanleague and other events. And everyone hates super long matches. Especially if you have to play plenty of those.
Ontopic:
What system will the matchmaking be? I think a modlist with ~5 very different mods and the ability to ban 2 mods prematch would be nice. Forces you to focus on at least 3 mods and adds some strategic value.
judofrac - hell no, a 70 tf mod for competitive play?!
tk/erthtk -personally I prefer tk, I always considered erthtk a bit awkward to play but I lack the experience with erthtk to make a judgement here
lenshu3ng - that's a given
wushu - box whatever version
aikidobd in favor of spiritwrestling - you can't argue with people streaking like crazy against less experienced players there even though I consider it to be one of the most boring mods ever
and for 5th one of the striking mods.
The argument of 12ish turns is a good one at the surface, but then again it really doesn't make sense; why not promote a varied environment instead of imposing a rule of "12ish turns, no more no less" for competitive matchmaking? Now, being able to "deselect" either the mods that go long or the short ones would probably promote a healthier matchmaking system as it allows people to choose whatever they are comfortable in.
But that's just my 5 cents on why we should promote both mods that go long and those which generally end on turn 6 after a flip. However, 40 might be a bit too much, but what about 30?
Now doing recoloring for people not in the clan as-well, PM for more info!
PROUD OWNER OF THORN'S GOOD ENOUGH WRITER AWARD!
PROUD OWNER OF THORN'S GOOD ENOUGH WRITER AWARD!
