Does free will exist? Does it matter?

Original Post

Ele

Oct 29, 2015

Ele

Join Date: Sep 2009

Oct 29, 2015

Does free will exist? Does it matter?

There was a thread here recently that sort of touched on this. It was about where the decisions we make come from. One of the points raised in that thread was that we don't really make decisions and that our neurochemistry decides what we do before we even know what we'll decide to do. This means that everything we decide to do is predetermined. We have no choice in the matter. No free will.

Determinism, broadly, is the idea that, given the exact same circumstances, you would always make the same decision. If there was another you on another planet, and that you grew up having the same genes and experiencing the same environment, that you would do everything exactly the same as you. It would make the exact same decisions.

What I want discussed is;

Do you believe free will exists? Yes/No and Why?
If it doesn't exist, what impact does that have on our daily lives?

I've got ideas of my own, but I'll see what people come up with before jumping in.

Last edited by Ele; Oct 29, 2015 at 04:11 PM.

cowmeat

Oct 29, 2015

cowmeat

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Join Date: Jun 2009

Oct 29, 2015

Originally Posted by SuicideDo

Burden of proof is in the "free will doesn't exist" side of the court on account of having a mathematical equation that proves we dont have free will - prove that math out: predict my next response in verbatim.

First of all, your entire post is just insane, but I'd like to touch on this. Since I'm not gonna touch on that whole clusterfuck you posted.

Burden of proof is always on the positive. That's how it works. The burden of proof is not on the person who denies god, but the one who says there is one.
Same applies for this.

"having a mathematical equation that proves we dont have free will - prove that math out: predict my next response in verbatim."

Also, what the actual fuck?

To me the question of free will is pretty hard to answer, since its quite rooted in semantics. Absolute free will?, nah I don't think so. Our enviornment and internal mechanisms such as the brain, dictate a lot of our decissions. But I'd be ready to call the will that we have (dictated by the universe or not) free, none the less. Even if it might be an "illusion"
To me the question isn't super meaningfull. But hey, thats just me.

Last edited by cowmeat; Oct 29, 2015 at 05:14 PM.

cowmeat

Oct 29, 2015

cowmeat

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Join Date: Jun 2009

Oct 29, 2015

Originally Posted by SuicideDo

well if it exists, i'd like to see it. if there literally exists an example that shows that free will does not exist, i would like to see that example. that's what i am asking is proof that this is true.

If we dont have free will, then one ought rightly be capable of proving that i do not.

So why can i not expect one make the effort to prove so?

Your logic is so messed up that I'm not going to try to reason with you, please accept this.

Ele

Oct 29, 2015

Ele

Join Date: Sep 2009

Oct 29, 2015

Originally Posted by Lazors

The idea that we would for some reason make decisions because of something else than logical conclusions seems more strange to me...

Tell me if i'm not making sense.

You're making sense, but you've misunderstood. The idea is that before you even come to your logical (or illogical) conclusions and come to a decision, that decision was already made for you. You would never have made a different decision. The decision was predetermined. You being you, you would always make the same decision.

Thats where determinism comes from - everything is already determined, there's a set path. Being unable to deviate from that set path is what people mean when they say that free will doesn't exist.

pouffy

Oct 29, 2015

pouffy

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Join Date: Sep 2014

Oct 29, 2015

You're going to have to specify exactly on what field we are discussing. It looks like SuicideDo is arguing on a metaphysical playing field. I'm guessing that we should probably be discussing on naturalistic grounds? Theistic and metaphysical properties are hardly arguable to begin with, and there's too much difference in belief to know that we're even talking about the same thing when we introduce metaphysics.

And it's fine for me to bring up examples that I brought up in the other thread, yes? ~Ele: yes

Last edited by Ele; Oct 29, 2015 at 06:12 PM.

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Ele

Oct 29, 2015

Ele

Join Date: Sep 2009

Oct 29, 2015

Originally Posted by Lazors

Yes, that's what I meant. Only that the decision that "was already made for me" is the only decision there's ever going to be. You don't make decisions that go against what you think is wise just because you have a free will.
It's hard to explain what I mean, but if determinism is making a rational decision based on facts and judgement, what is the opposite?

The thing is, it's not just based on facts and judgements. It's also based on your genes, your neurochemical makeup and lots of other factors that we don't normally think has to do with our decision-making.

A example that determinists use is Charles Whitman. He's the guy that killed his mother and girlfriend before climbing to the top of a bell tower in Austin and shooting another 16 people. Clearly an evil guy, right? Well, perhaps not. After an autopsy was performed, it turned out that he had a large tumor in his brain pressing against his hypothalamus. Whitman, before his death, wrote about how he recognised that he wasn't really in control of his actions. It was determined by a commission that the tumor plausibly could have been the reason that Whitman did what he did. It's easy to see how other things, like our neurochemistry, may be affecting our decision-making in ways that we're unaware of.

Our decisions to do things aren't just based on our conscious thoughts. That's where the phrase, 'the illusion of free will' comes from. We certainly think that we're in charge of what we do, but that might not necessarily be the case.

cowmeat

Oct 29, 2015

cowmeat

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Join Date: Jun 2009

Oct 29, 2015

Originally Posted by Zelda

I would like to repeat that reality is non-deterministic. This is well established and tested physics. Look up John Bell and his inequalities. The determinism vs non-determinism argument ended decades ago. The result of a measurement in quantum physics is not predetermined, it is random.

I think absolute determinism can be ruled out (thanks to quantum mechanics), but you can still argue for "lesser versions" of determinism. Especially in the context of free will.

cowmeat

Oct 29, 2015

cowmeat

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Join Date: Jun 2009

Oct 29, 2015

Originally Posted by Pimp

Does this necessarily mean that the universe isn't deterministic though? Doesn't this just affect what we can determine based on what we can observe?

If quantum mechanical outcomes are random, which we (smarter people than me) are quite sure that they are, universe can't be deterministic. If a system has a random element in it, the outcome of the system's products/procedures will be, at some level, random as well.

That doesn't mean you can't predict almost anything based from the non random elements of the said system, but it does mean that it's not absolutely deterministic. I'm not saying
"BECAUSE QUANTUM MECHANICS EVERYTHING IS RANDOM FREE WILL EXISTS WOOOO",
because firstly I don't understand quantum mechanics, and if someone here says they do, ignore that person.

But if there is a random element to our universe, absolute determinism doesn't apply (that's at least how I understand it.).

Ele

Oct 30, 2015

Ele

Join Date: Sep 2009

Oct 30, 2015

Originally Posted by Lazors

So the alternative would be that everyone is born the same and thus could make proper decisions without interference from our genes?

The alternative to determinism is that free will exists. Or that both exist at the same time (compatibilism).

Originally Posted by Lazors

Ok, but what makes that "free will" our free will? Is it really free if everyone would make the same choice in identical situations?

That's exactly it. If you grew up as Hitler, the argument goes that you would make all the same decisions that he did. That there was never any other way for things to play out other than how they happened is what they mean by 'free will doesn't exist'.

Originally Posted by Lazors

Now what you are saying is that genetics is in the way of free will, which means that you don't think two people in the same situation would act in the same way.

Mhm. It's not just genetics that determines the decision making though, it's also their environment + experiences. Easy way to think of it is nature+nurture. Going back to Hitler, if you took his place, instead of actually being him, then history would've turned out differently. If you were Hitler, then it would remain the same.

Originally Posted by cocacobra

I've been in situations where I would not have normally done something until someone else brought in another aspect that pushed me to do it. For instance I would have never gone rock climbing if I didn't randomly run into my friend before he went, now it's a big part of my life.

Did you randomly meet him though? Or did the chain of events that led to you and him being in the same place at the same time dictate that you'd meet him? If everything is on a set path, then that'd mean that your paths would always have intersected in that way.

Originally Posted by cocacobra

My argument would then be that even if determinism is true isn't it still technically free will? Free will is just the ability to choose all the options which is true, even if it is predetermined.

This is what I was getting at with the second question I posed (what impact does this have on us/does it even matter). Everything being predetermined doesn't really have any impact on how we live our lives. Except in the ethical sense. If we take it that Hitler did everything the way he did because of his nature + nurture, and that, if we were him, we would've done the exact same thing, then we have to question just how responsible he was for his own actions. The American justice system (and many others) has, as a foundational idea, the belief that free will does exist, and that people are responsible. If it doesn't exist, then that opens up the door to compassion and more restorative (as opposed to retributive) judicial practices. We don't blame a lion for doing lion-like things. That doesn't mean we don't shoot a lion if it attacks us or anything, but it means that we're aware that 'hey, that's just how it is'. If we look at criminals with less of a 'fuck you, piece of shit' attitude and more of a 'he didn't have a say in the matter', then we're able to be more compassionate and we're able to break away from the ancient (and perhaps outdated) 'eye for an eye' mentality.

There's no practical difference that the nonexistence of free will has on our lives, but it does raise some really deep and tricky ethical questions.

Last edited by Ele; Oct 30, 2015 at 04:49 AM.

Ele

Oct 30, 2015

Ele

Join Date: Sep 2009

Oct 30, 2015

Originally Posted by cocacobra

Well there we go now we are back to what my post asked which was what kind of free will we are talking about and it seems now we are on the product of your environment kind of free will.

Product of your environment I view is a majority thing, and really depends on the person. First things first people are different and will react to the same things differently, and my main point is that there are many exceptions to the product of your environment. I personally know a few people who grew up in very very very shitty homes but now attend college and instead of letting their terrible upbringing consume them they just distanced themselves from it and used as an example of what not to do.

No, it's not just about your environment. It's a whole multitude of factors (that I've identified earlier in this thread) that contributes to why you make the decisions you make, and why you couldn't possibly have made any different decisions. Using your example, that person was always going to make the correct decisions they made to get out of poverty because that person is that person.

I don't think you understand what I'm getting at (not trying to be a dick or anything). I feel my previous explanation and my whole last post in general sums up what I'm talking about when I'm talking about free will. Replaced 'genetics' with 'upbringing' so it applies to you.

Originally Posted by Ele

Mhm. It's not just ~~genetics~~ upbringing that determines the decision making though, it's also their environment + experiences. Easy way to think of it is nature+nurture. Going back to Hitler, if you took his place, instead of actually being him, then history would've turned out differently. If you were Hitler, then it would remain the same.

Originally Posted by Ele

If you grew up as Hitler, the argument goes that you would make all the same decisions that he did. That there was never any other way for things to play out other than how they happened is what they mean by 'free will doesn't exist'.

Last edited by Ele; Oct 30, 2015 at 01:49 PM.

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