Originally Posted by mwah

yeah, I might agree with that if there was ever a report in-game or on the forums of a discussion where nigger was used in a 'peaceful' context such as this thread. generally nigger is used around here in the game or on the forum aside from this discussion thread in an offensive way. let's review Pimp's ban for saying nigger. he used it as a quote from a joke in poor taste. should he have been banned for 'racism' maybe not. should he have been infracted/banned for inappropriate language, yeah probably. but like I've said earlier every mod will interpret and moderate different situations in different ways. if you're calling for an across the board moderation for this fine bring that up, but if you are agreeing and saying that context is everything, you can't objectively look at context. it's always interpreted differently by different people. the same goes for moderators.

but to say that the word nigger can be used in so many different ways publicly isn't all that true. the only situations I can think of is a thread like this, or a joke in poor taste. if you can name any other situations go ahead.

but what I really think people are calling for is better reasoning behind bans that involve this word other than racism, across the board moderation for use of the word. because context has always been looked at with this word as well as the users background. for example not everyone will get banned off the bat for saying nigger depending on the person and the context. I'll agree on what ele said bout racism, the word isn't inherently racist depending on the context you use it in. but it's still a racial slur, and we don't support any kind of racial slur. same goes for most trigger words. even faggot. if I ever saw a report where someone calls a guy 'a fucking dumb faggot' I'd give him an infract or a ban depending on the person. replace faggot with any other trigger word like nigger and it goes the same way.

But i have to agree with fee, it doesn't benefit you saying it anyway, why should you care if a word is forbidden?

Originally Posted by Kyure

I'm still confused why faggot is not outright banned. It is never used in a casual way, and is meant as an insult in every context. Saying that it means "a bag of sticks" is just a stupid thing to say. Words that were designed to be hurtful towards a certain group of people are never socially acceptable, and should just be outright banned across the forums, in public IRC channels and in public rooms ingame.

Originally Posted by SmallBowl

Personally I know pretty much nothing about Pimp's case so I cannot comment.

But this is precisely the point, if he made a joke in bad taste then the worst he should get, in my opinion, is a warning. It is not as if he was being objectively racist or aggressive in any way and it does not make him a bad person or a particularly bad user.

Of course moderators will view things in different ways but I think the fact that a person is a moderator means they must have some sort of ability of judgement and common sense, surely we can trust our own moderators to make reasonable calls on what is and isnt racist/unacceptable?

I dont recall saying many different ways, in any case there are ways in which it can be used.
-As a greeting
-Unaggressive jokes in poor taste
-Discussions

These are all of course off the top of my head, the fact is that since "nigger" is such a trigger, there are some staff that would instantly bad someone for saying the word in any public server even if the context was acceptable such as in one of the cases mentioned above. This is simply not right, if used with no intent of aggression then there is no reason for a ban to be placed - context is everything.

Looking at the name of the discussion - I disagree.

Also context has not always been used, there have been people banned for using the word harmlessly in friendly phrases - greetings etc. If the word is not inherently racist depending on the context it is used in, why should it be banned regardless of context? This is contradictory.

A racial slur it may be but all words can be used in the correct circumstance. The fact it is a racial slur is not irrelevant, but it is not the be all and end all of the discussion, it simply means it should be used more carefully than other words.

Also faggot is not treated in the same way as nigger, whereas there is an argument that it should be, it is singling out a minority group in the same way, and can be extremely offensive. Like nigger however its use is acceptable contextually, and should be treated as so.

Originally Posted by mwah

no words are banned. like I said earlier everyone is free to say what they want, but you know, consequences. I've also never gotten a report from the word faggot, if I did the guy would have gotten a punishment depending on the context. which is what everyone is in an uproar about.

that's why I said every moderator is different. everyone is going to interpret context differently and punish users on different levels of harshness because we don't have a flat objective punishment for that kind of stuff in comparison to things like scams.

okay, so from your point of view you can say "I don't think this guy should have been banned for saying nigger in this way", even though an smod bans him for saying it for a day, but neither of you would be wrong because you interpreted the context differently and came to a different judgement. so who are you to say that his call was unreasonable if that's the case? racial slurs aren't acceptable man. we've said this over and over if you want to make a joke using one do it with your buddies and not in a public area if you don't want to get in trouble what's wrong with that?

using nigger as a greeting? I'll say again, we aren't talking about the slang.

yeah doesn't matter if it isn't aggressive. it's just classified as inappropriate language, which warrants a 1 point infraction. how can you complain about a one point infraction for saying a nigger joke in a public server?

theses discussions are one in a million. and obviously no one in this thread has been infracted or warned for saying nigger because of the context of the discussion.

show me some cases where the context was acceptable and the user still got banned for using the word 'nigger'. don't show me any cases of the slang. it just doesn't happen. and if it does, the moderator can just argue that he interpreted it as inappropriate which it probably was. that's why I've said over and over that we either change the reasoning of punishment to inappropriate language, or handle these words the exact same way across the board. no one has weighed in on that, which should be the purpose of this discussion. to find a solution instead of continually arguing is this word always racist or "why can't I use this word to tell a joke whenever I want?"

no one is saying the word is inherently racist, I disputed that like a couple posts ago.

no one uses nigger as a greeting. again, we aren't talking about the slang. if you're using the word nigger, as a joke do it in a private server how is that not being accepted?

we laid out the very few situations where saying nigger might warrant at the least a warning. the only time it should be the "correct circumstance" it's in a private server with people who know you're joking, know the context, or wont report you cause you're already buddies. saying it in a public server causes problems because if you're saying 'hey so-and-so you're a big nigger lol' and they know it's joke, the people around you might interpret that differently and it gets reported.

tl;dr fucking say if you'd rather have the reasoning changed from racism to inappropriate language depending on the context, or if you want across the board moderation on these types of words to be discussed. going back and forth about context is dumb, we already take into account context and I've already told everyone numerous times why people might still get infracted/banned regardless (because of the interpretation of the moderator involved).

and after that, we can make a public service announcement saying 'hey, don't use this word in public servers or you may be liable to punishment if you are reported. definition public servers include: blah, blah, blah.

Originally Posted by Simon

I honestly think that you should close this thread, its not good for the community to have a discussion like this.

Its pretty obvious that you should not use offensive language against others, it is in the rules, follow the rules.

I see no point in having a discussion going back and forth about different scenarios and degrees of what can happen surrounding the rule, let moderators worry about that.

Originally Posted by SmallBowl

No words are banned but you get banned for using a word?

(The word is indeed pretty much banned for use in public in toribash)


Of course, but this would not be made worse in anyway if the word was allowed.

If anything this issue would be made lessened as there would be a lot less controversy surrounding every case involving it.

"Racial slurs arent acceptable" - I agree, using racial slurs in an aggressive way is of course terrible and should be punished harshly. This is a very different concept to blacklisting the word entirely, if it is not used in this way then whats the issue?

Also, if I thought his call was unacceptable, I can ask him why he made his discussion and have a chat about it, at the end of the day he has his own common sense and its his call - I trust the moderators here to not make ridiculous decisions regarding bans of this nature.

If we arent also talking about the slang why is it treated the same way in bans? Check through Ban Appeals I'm sure there will be a thread with someone who used the slang, there always is.

Again, why not the slang? Its banned and treated much the same way. Ill try and find you a case and link it to you in PM, I imagine there will be one without the slang anyway.

Then what is your argument? If it isnt inherently racist why should it be blacklisted?

Youre simultaneously saying racial slurs arent ok and saying the word isnt inherently racist.

Again the slang is also relevant because it is banned and treated much the same.

Saying it in this way is not the only way it can be said, in my opinion this particular example warrants a verbal warning imo. The reason it should be warned at all is that it could conceivably be interpreted in different ways although from the point of view of probably pretty much all moderators there was no malicious intent.

- There was no malicious intent, if someone is offended by this then they need to "grow thicker skin" its the internet, far worse things will come there way.

This thread is about discussing across the board moderation of these types of word. That's exactly what we are supposed to be, and what I am, discussing here.

We do not take into account context to the extent you should, you said yourself a non-aggressive case in a public room would be banned/infracted on the first instance of it happening.

Originally Posted by mwah

yea, how does that not make sense? again context is interpreted and the moderator makes the decision on the punishment. more times than not, however, it results in a ban.

no one is saying blacklist the word

I'm not saying blacklist the word

read my posts aaaa

because the discussion arose in response to Pimp's ban. and that's why it has been centered around nigger and not the slang.


it's not though. more times than not you will not be straight up banned for saying nigga.

quote me where I said I want the word to be blacklisted or banned. I haven't said that.

yeah doesn't matter if it isn't aggressive. it's just classified as inappropriate language, which warrants a 1 point infraction.

yeah, if we're involving context, which we are it is not always used to be racist. but it's still a racial slur. and they still aren't okay to say in general. I'm just giving the word less power by saying not everyone who says it is a racist. because they aren't, probably.


but that's not the target of this thread.

I'll take a quote from ele when he got insulted on IRC by me. "I can take it, but I shouldn't have to". I shouldn't have to go into a public server and see anyone spouting shit about nigger this and nigger that.

yeah, because it's still not an okay thing to say. how do you not get this. it's not okay to say nigger in a public place. this is how life works. I've been saying again and again, say it with your friends, say it in a private server. just don't say it where some may take it the wrong way and report you because you are liable to get a punishment in that case.

again, my thoughts stays the same: why should I have to tolerate seeing you making nigger jokes in a server if it's a derogatory word that I don't feel comfortable viewing while I'm trying to play a game?

to clarify, my argument is to continue to have punishments for people saying nigger in public areas. ie: the forums and public servers but rather than label the ban or infraction to racism, depending on the context label it inappropriate language or insulting other members since it's collectively agreed that just saying the word doesn't make you racist. I don't want anyone to feel as though they can't joke around or say what they want ('cause you can) but you have to realize that there are consequences to what you say, so if you are going to make a joke using this offensive trigger word, than do it with your buddies in a private server. don't object everyone else to having to see it and feeling uncomfortable.

what's wrong with that?

Originally Posted by SmallBowl

Its not banned but using it results in a ban. - this is contradictory, the word is being banned (& blacklisted same thing)

In a similar vein, you are saying the word cannot be used - therefore you are indeed saying to blacklist the word.

Pimps ban sparked a larger diacussion about an ongoing issue that has existed for a long time. It is by no means the only instance. Other bans are relevant too, we are discussing rule changes, of course all related bans are relevant.

It really is treated the same way though, otherwise there would not be so many ban appeals complaining about the fact that "nigga isnt racist" when they still got banned

Here you clearly say the word cannot and should not be able to be used in a public setting whatsoever this is blacklisting the word not specifically using the key term "blacklisting" doesnt mean that you are not blacklisting the word.

another example is just below

I disagree, you are giving the word more power by blacklisting it and giving it more attention than any other word, but youre right. The effect of our actions on the power of the word is not ghe topic of discussion.

I agree, but in this case nigger is no different to any other word, I shouldnt have to join a room and have to endure anyone spouting shit any words at all, the fact that the word is nigger does not change this. Saying "its not ok because thats how life works" isnt really an argument, in some contexts it is fine to say it.

Besides if you get offended by the word you can get the ignore script at ignore people who use it. Why should their freedom of speech be undermined by another users freedom to be offended by nothing more than a word used in a non-aggressive way?

See above.

Freedom of speech should not be undermined by freedom to be offended, when no aggression is present.


Or you could get an ignore script and not have to see it anyway.

Originally Posted by Faint

i definitely think that there isn't much of an issue using the words in private and in a non-racial manner or whatever, but if you're going to start going around using nigger in a racist way, faggot in a homophobic way, in public, etc., you're likely going to get punished and i think most people already understand this.

Originally Posted by suomynona

But for the public servers, a general ban is more appropriate. The same logic that applies to public servers also applies, in general, to the forums. One can argue that clan boards and private clan boards are an exception, but considering the role that clans play in the community, I would personally be hesitant to support a fundamentally racist clan into becoming official. As such, I don't see much reason to actually exclude the clan boards from this same evaluation.