What Im saying is that he was not influenced by the modern day form of Islam most Muslims in modern day society follow. Im not saying he wasnt influenced by a form of Islam, but that it is important to say it was extreme, fundamental Islam.
I did not say he was not a Muslim either, modern day Islam - rather than extreme fundamentalist Islam - does not support the same things and is not in essence a bad thing at all, but that doesnt mean some versions of Islam, such as this one, are not terrible - the two views and ideologies are very different even if they do fall under the same umbrella and I think it is important that they are treated as so
I brought up IS because thats the terror group he pledged allegience to when he did the attack. Its pretty blatant that thats the group that influenced him, which makes it very relevant to your post.
I did not say he was not a Muslim either, modern day Islam - rather than extreme fundamentalist Islam - does not support the same things and is not in essence a bad thing at all, but that doesnt mean some versions of Islam, such as this one, are not terrible - the two views and ideologies are very different even if they do fall under the same umbrella and I think it is important that they are treated as so
I brought up IS because thats the terror group he pledged allegience to when he did the attack. Its pretty blatant that thats the group that influenced him, which makes it very relevant to your post.
Last edited by SmallBowl; Jun 14, 2016 at 10:11 AM.
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Originally Posted by SmallBowl
What Im saying is that he was not influenced by the modern day form of Islam most Muslims in modern day society follow. Im not saying he wasnt influenced by a form of Islam, but that it is important to say it was extreme, fundamental Islam.
I did not say he was not a Muslim either, modern day Islam - rather than extreme fundamentalist Islam - does not support the same things and is not in essence a bad thing at all.
I brought up IS because thats the terror group he pledged allegience to when he did the attack. Its pretty blatant that thats the group that influenced him, which makes it very relevant to your post.
Firstly, there is no good islam and bad islam, nor is there modern day islam. There is only one book which people follow in various degrees of fundamentalism. Modern day islam is just basically being a bad muslim. Muslims who have lived in western countries have adopted western ideals of freedom, liberty and acceptance. That is not a credit to islam as a religion, that is credited to literally removing aspects of that faith. Holding on to all the barbaric ideals that quran holds, is literally the truest nature of islam.
That is the same that has been done to christianity in the west, watered it down to suit the capitalistic libertarian ideals of the 20th and 21th century.
I'd dare to say people of saudi arabia are pretty "modern", is islam there moderate? Just because you like it better doesn't make it any more valid interpretation of islam than al qaedas. No...you will not be able to show islam as a positive or even an irrelevant force in this discussion.
And yeah, bringing up IS wasn't irrelevant, my bad.
Last edited by cowmeat; Jun 14, 2016 at 10:22 AM.
There are definitely different interpretations of it and therefore different forms of Islam with different values.
Of course there are different and more modern adaptations and interpretations of other religions too
More valid no, but is it a different interpretation? Yes, and does it have different values? Yes, it should therefote be treated as so.
Im not trying to show Islam to always be a positive influence or a negligable influence at all. What im saying is that it is bigoted to denounce all forms of Islam and all its followers due to the views and values of certain other people who falls under the same general umbrella of Muslim.
Of course there are different and more modern adaptations and interpretations of other religions too
More valid no, but is it a different interpretation? Yes, and does it have different values? Yes, it should therefote be treated as so.
Im not trying to show Islam to always be a positive influence or a negligable influence at all. What im saying is that it is bigoted to denounce all forms of Islam and all its followers due to the views and values of certain other people who falls under the same general umbrella of Muslim.
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Originally Posted by SmallBowl
Im not trying to show Islam to always be a positive influence or a negligable influence at all. What im saying is that it is bigoted to denounce all forms of Islam and all its followers due to the views and values of certain other people who falls under the same general umbrella of Muslim.
Firstly, if you think it's bigoted to denounce all forms of islam then I think you are an idiot. It's bigoted to think of some ideologies as bad? Oh please... I denounce all forms of nazism, I denounce all forms of nationalism, I denounce all forms of religion and I denounce all forms of racism. Does that make me a bigot?
Surely blaming individuals who had nothing to do with this, or any other attack, just because they are muslims is incredibly wrong and cowardly. But I discuss these things with the assumption that when having a discussion like this we have the capacity to discuss ideologies separate of individuals.
Furthermore, just going "BUT ITS NOT ALL MUSLIMS AND ISLAM IS A BROAD RELIGION" is bringing absolutely nothing to this discussion what so ever. I'm pretty sure anyone worth having a conversation with can understand and separate these basic concepts, and I know you can as well. I'd honestly like to hear your personal thoughts on the matter, instead of just trying to defend people who are not being attacked in this discussion. (except by ynvaser)
Last edited by cowmeat; Jun 14, 2016 at 10:35 AM.
Yes. It does.
Perhaps, but you certainly dont seem to be able to - you are suggesting an entire religion, not just an interpretation of a religion mind, is to blame for 1 persons actions. You are doing the same thing you say is wrong but in reverse.
On this point you are contradicting yourself, are you or are you not agreeing that Islam is not a broad co cept and is not inherently to blane? If you are agreeing then why do you think its still good to denounce all forms of religion? If you are not agreeing then there clearly is something to discuss.
Perhaps, but you certainly dont seem to be able to - you are suggesting an entire religion, not just an interpretation of a religion mind, is to blame for 1 persons actions. You are doing the same thing you say is wrong but in reverse.
On this point you are contradicting yourself, are you or are you not agreeing that Islam is not a broad co cept and is not inherently to blane? If you are agreeing then why do you think its still good to denounce all forms of religion? If you are not agreeing then there clearly is something to discuss.
Last edited by SmallBowl; Jun 14, 2016 at 10:40 AM.
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