Originally Posted by cowmeat
Well I think I phrased it a bit poorly, I did not mean you have to believe everything in quran literally, but that you have to believe that quran is the word of god, otherwise you cant be a muslim (that being the literal definition of a muslim).
What I meant there was taking everything in the Qu'ran entirely literally, which you dont have to to be a Muslim
So I don't think you have to be a fundamentalist to be a muslim, that misunderstanding was due to my poor phrasing. But I still think even if you don't believe everything the quran says literally, if the word of your god says that homosexuality is bad, it will have a negative impact on your behaviour. For the same reason, homophobia is more noticeable in christian communities than in secular ones. What the quran says, even if you dont accept everything literally, will influence you since you still believe its divine.
Thats what I meant. Sorry for that poor phrasing.
This we can agree on, many religions are certainly oppressive towards people who are homosexual, I do think the religion is partly to blame - but at the same time there are Christians and people of other religions who are not against homosexuality, so even here I believe the person is more important than the religion and it is certainly true that some branches of every religion are more accepting of homosexuality than others. As a side note - being against gay marriage doesnt necessarily make you against homosexuality either.
But all this comes back to the point, that this way I can still generalize a concept of islam that is not contradictory. It's based on the belief that quran is divine and thus what the quran says is highly influental. Not to be mistaken with fundamentalism.
Ps. Fixed that literally part of the previous post, read it again.
This is all true, but, in the case in point of Omar Mateen - it is safe to say most Muslim teachings, particularly in Western society would not inspire this act which is why I think in cases like this it is important to give the branch of Islam he is acting from. Would you agree with this?
Another thing, its come through the news today from the nightclub that "Omar Mateen has been in the nightclub at least a dozen times before so it is almost certain that he had other motives for what he did".
Don't dm me pictures of bowls that you find attractive.
Not immediately relevant to the discussion of this thread, but I found this article to be an interesting bit of information for you all to chew on:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report...222620444.html
There are a lot of angles to consider here, and I don't pretend to know the shooter's motives or even how to fix the problem for the future. As a bisexual man, I can relate to how this man had an inner conflict between family, social obligations, religion, and sexual orientation that led to a bad mental state and thus to horrible actions. I think this proves that lgbt issues are not over with yet, similar to how racial issues are not even close to completely resolved at this point.
I don't want to try to convince you of anything, because I'm not convinced of anything and I'm stupid and basically all of us have no idea what we're talking about. I just think this is important to consider.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report...222620444.html
There are a lot of angles to consider here, and I don't pretend to know the shooter's motives or even how to fix the problem for the future. As a bisexual man, I can relate to how this man had an inner conflict between family, social obligations, religion, and sexual orientation that led to a bad mental state and thus to horrible actions. I think this proves that lgbt issues are not over with yet, similar to how racial issues are not even close to completely resolved at this point.
I don't want to try to convince you of anything, because I'm not convinced of anything and I'm stupid and basically all of us have no idea what we're talking about. I just think this is important to consider.
[12:00] <fudgiebalz> toribash SUCKS
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Reports said that he called 911, and told them that he was pledging to Allah, and that he understood why people that have done these things before, like the Boston Marathon Bombing, 9/11, Sandy Hook, Columbine, etc. Even though not all of these were done by Islamic Extremists, it is very unsettling.
Thank you for sharing that Larfen, my aunt spoke with me about that this morning, but didn't get to finding an article until now.
Now, I am one for making guns, preferably semi automatics, or just weapons like the AR-15. There is no reason to have guns like those to be held by citizens. Unless they've served in the military and it's theirs, but still, no need really.
When I speak of Gun Control, I don't mean the restriction of weapons all over, just the ability to gain them legally and what kinds of guns are allowed needs to be changed.
I've been away for a bit, so I didn't get to reading everything. So I apologize if any of this has been spoken of already or not part of anything.
Thank you for sharing that Larfen, my aunt spoke with me about that this morning, but didn't get to finding an article until now.
Now, I am one for making guns, preferably semi automatics, or just weapons like the AR-15. There is no reason to have guns like those to be held by citizens. Unless they've served in the military and it's theirs, but still, no need really.
When I speak of Gun Control, I don't mean the restriction of weapons all over, just the ability to gain them legally and what kinds of guns are allowed needs to be changed.
I've been away for a bit, so I didn't get to reading everything. So I apologize if any of this has been spoken of already or not part of anything.
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@Grohen
In addition to what Oracle said, you also conflated gun laws with other very significant factors like socioeconomic factors and family related instability like divorce and fatherlessness, all of which tend to have a positive correlation with violent crime.
In addition to what Oracle said, you also conflated gun laws with other very significant factors like socioeconomic factors and family related instability like divorce and fatherlessness, all of which tend to have a positive correlation with violent crime.
Originally Posted by SmallBowl
This is all true, but, in the case in point of Omar Mateen - it is safe to say most Muslim teachings, particularly in Western society would not inspire this act which is why I think in cases like this it is important to give the branch of Islam he is acting from. Would you agree with this?
Another thing, its come through the news today from the nightclub that "Omar Mateen has been in the nightclub at least a dozen times before so it is almost certain that he had other motives for what he did".
I'm not so sure I would agree with that.
I don't see the rhetoric of western islam being not also at fault here. Let's not forget that in the UK, arguably where the most western islam can be found, over half of the muslim population would want to outlaw homosexuality entirely. And on top of that only 18% percent found homosexuality somewhat acceptable. So in the light of these grim statistics, preaching the harmfulness of western islam feels pretty dishonest. If most of your peers want to outlaw homosexuality, being a troubled closet homosexual yourself, I can't imagine it doing much good for your psyche.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ity-sharia-law
This person was clearly tormented by his homosexuality and his religion not being compatible with one another. Obviously for a sane person that wouldn't cause such acts to occur, but can I say that westernized islam is not also at fault? Not if I'm being honest to myself.
Surely the extremist fundamental wing will inspire more of these acts than the more modern moderate wing, but I wouldn't still regard them even remotely as a force for good.
Yet again, may it be inspired by the extremist wing or not, the cause is clearly an islamic problem in general. Not just the fundamental wing.
So in conclusion, I will hold all of islam somewhat accountable for such acts, not equally, but still relevantly.
Last edited by cowmeat; Jun 14, 2016 at 10:18 PM.
